News:

Welcome to our site!

Main Menu

Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Absolute_Agent

#180
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 19, 2019, 04:56:50 PM
That's not saying much. Also, I highly doubt that Islam promotes more freedom of thought than the Eastern religions, such as Buddhism. Don't think I didn't notice how you bragged about how Muslims murdered Pagans to the point of their religions nearly going extinct. Freedom of thought. Give me a break.
Muhammad offered a peaceful coexistence with the polytheists but they declined and instead declared total war on Islam.  Some of his closest relatives were on the opposite battle lines and he pleaded with them to just go home but they were so mad with hatred for the Muslims that the only option was to completely annihilate polytheism in Arabia.  The polytheists were always given the option to lay down their weapons and surrender to Islamic rule and enjoy protection.  However time and again they violated their treaties such that they had to be forced out of Mecca.

I practiced the Eastern religions and my statement was made with full awareness of what they offer.  As to your opinion, you're welcome to it.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

Absolute_Agent



Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 19, 2019, 10:10:32 PM
Eh, hate to tell you this, but having free will and being freethinking are not synonymous. My comment doesn't refute Hijiri or Sal in the slightest.

So then you would agree that one could have a free mind while being locked up in a dungeon?  And likewise you would agree that one could be mentally hypnotized but still make free choices?

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk


Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 11:10:21 PM
Muhammad offered a peaceful coexistence with the polytheists but they declined and instead declared total war on Islam.  Some of his closest relatives were on the opposite battle lines and he pleaded with them to just go home but they were so mad with hatred for the Muslims that the only option was to completely annihilate polytheism in Arabia.  The polytheists were always given the option to lay down their weapons and surrender to Islamic rule and enjoy protection.  However time and again they violated their treaties such that they had to be forced out of Mecca.  Try studying Islamic history from authentic sources instead of Fox News, you could learn something.

I practiced the Eastern religions and my statement was made with full awareness of what they offer.  As to your opinion, you're welcome to it.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

From the POV of the Quraysh ... Muhammad was a provocateur, a seditionist, a revolutionary.  Almost any society, faced with that, would recognize the need for suppression.  Not saying the Quraysh were right, but after the first few Caliphs, their people, pardoned by a victorious Muhammad, became the Ummayad dynasty.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absolute_Agent

#183
Quote from: Baruch on June 20, 2019, 12:54:05 AM
From the POV of the Quraysh ... Muhammad was a provocateur, a seditionist, a revolutionary.  Almost any society, faced with that, would recognize the need for suppression.  Not saying the Quraysh were right, but after the first few Caliphs, their people, pardoned by a victorious Muhammad, became the Ummayad dynasty.
These were false labels.  Muhammad (SAW) was of the most genial and peaceable character with the people of Mecca, even his most bitter opponents-- a model citizen. 

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 19, 2019, 10:10:32 PM
Validity is not the end-all, be-all of an argument. An argument with validity but without soundness is an interesting exercise, but doesn't actually show anything of consequence.

I never claimed it was the end all be all.  But it does have social, economic and educational value in relating to others one disagrees with.  I can look at an atheist's arguments such as yourself and realize, I don't agree with Hakurei's assumptions or conclusions, but I understand her process of thinking, and I can tell she's a reasonable intelligent primate.  Conclusion: safe to do business with (if we were in face to face interaction), or, this is someone I can learn from.  I might not gain anything from the argument itself but it could tell me a lot about who is presenting the argument.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

Baruch

#185
Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 20, 2019, 01:37:37 AM
These were false labels.  Muhammad (SAW) was of the most genial and peaceable character with the people of Mecca, even his most bitter opponents-- a model citizen. 

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

You misread me.  That is the tradition ... that Muhammad had the highest ethics.  But the Quraysh as Meccan merchants ... probably were not.  Which is the point, if wealth and power are involved, and Muhammad had the potential to disrupt that ... then they were justified (unethically) at trying to stop him and his followers.  Just as the current Saudi Crown Prince is justified in eliminating any perceived opposition.

Any utopian Muslim community was compromised, after the death of Caliph Abu Bakr, if not before.  Because of people being sinners.  I don't think any idealistic Jewish or Christian community would have lasted longer.  Human corruption is a very strong force.  With the material success of Caliph Umar ... corruption went exponential.  The Umayyads and Abbasids were unable to recapture the early ideal, but moved on, under first Syrian and then Persian influence.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Baruch on June 20, 2019, 03:41:04 AM
You misread me.  That is the tradition ... that Muhammad had the highest ethics.  But the Quraysh as Meccan merchants ... probably were not.  Which is the point, if wealth and power are involved, and Muhammad had the potential to disrupt that ... then they were justified (unethically) at trying to stop him and his followers.  Just as the current Saudi Crown Prince is justified in eliminating any perceived opposition.

Any utopian Muslim community was compromised, after the death of Caliph Abu Bakr, if not before.  Because of people being sinners.  I don't think any idealistic Jewish or Christian community would have lasted longer.  Human corruption is a very strong force.  With the material success of Caliph Umar ... corruption went exponential.  The Umayyads and Abbasids were unable to recapture the early ideal, but moved on, under first Syrian and then Persian influence.
I'm glad you are well acquainted with Islamic history and I can't disagree with your assessments; except I don't like the word "justified" to describe what the Quraysh did to Muhammad (SAW), even with the qualification.  It was entirely unjust and even unnecessary as the Islamic Empire that sprung up in their place far surpassed their previous little idol-racket in wealth and prestige. 

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk


josephpalazzo

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 01:25:10 PM
If you insist on making unfounded assumptions then I see no possibility for any productive discussion, and I can only conclude that you are not actually looking for an answer to that question.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk



Typical answer for a troll.

Here's Mike Cl's question again:"How can a merciful god or entity produce such a system when it could have designed it in any way it chose to? "




Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 20, 2019, 03:59:34 AM
I'm glad you are well acquainted with Islamic history and I can't disagree with your assessments; except I don't like the word "justified" to describe what the Quraysh did to Muhammad (SAW), even with the qualification.  It was entirely unjust and even unnecessary as the Islamic Empire that sprung up in their place far surpassed their previous little idol-racket in wealth and prestige. 

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

1. We can assume that idealism that says we return good for good and good for bad

2. Or we can assume that realism that says we return good for our allies and bad for our enemies
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Blackleaf

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 20, 2019, 01:37:37 AM
These were false labels.  Muhammad (SAW) was of the most genial and peaceable character with the people of Mecca, even his most bitter opponents-- a model citizen. 

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

Wow. That is hilariously wrong. The Muhammed you believe in is totally opposite from the one of history, or even the one described in your holy texts. The real Muhammed was a murderer, a plunderer, and a child rapist as well as the leader of a violent cult.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Blackleaf

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 11:10:21 PM
Muhammad offered a peaceful coexistence with the polytheists but they declined and instead declared total war on Islam.  Some of his closest relatives were on the opposite battle lines and he pleaded with them to just go home but they were so mad with hatred for the Muslims that the only option was to completely annihilate polytheism in Arabia.  The polytheists were always given the option to lay down their weapons and surrender to Islamic rule and enjoy protection.  However time and again they violated their treaties such that they had to be forced out of Mecca.

I practiced the Eastern religions and my statement was made with full awareness of what they offer.  As to your opinion, you're welcome to it.

"Protection." Yeah, sure. Like the "protection" the mafia gave to those under their thumb, as long as they pay up. Only this "protection," the jizya deal of pay up or die, was only ever offered to Christians and Jews. The polytheists were just murdered outright. You can try to twist history to suit your liking, but it's not getting past us.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Absolute_Agent

#191
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 20, 2019, 09:42:00 AM
Wow. That is hilariously wrong. The Muhammed you believe in is totally opposite from the one of history, or even the one described in your holy texts. The real Muhammed was a murderer, a plunderer, and a child rapist as well as the leader of a violent cult.

Poppycock.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

Absolute_Agent

#192
Quote from: Baruch on June 20, 2019, 07:57:14 AM
1. We can assume that idealism that says we return good for good and good for bad

2. Or we can assume that realism that says we return good for our allies and bad for our enemies
The Islamic approach is to do good to all including enemies, understanding that good also means stopping oppression.

{Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or is oppressed.” It was said, “O Messenger of Allah, we help the oppressed, but how do we help an oppressor?” The Prophet said, “By seizing his hand.”}

https://abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2011/03/14/support-wrongdoers-stop-them/

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

Absolute_Agent



Quote from: josephpalazzo on June 20, 2019, 06:11:53 AM
Typical answer for a troll.

Here's Mike Cl's question again:"How can a merciful god or entity produce such a system when it could have designed it in any way it chose to? "

Here's his answer:

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 03:35:58 PM
If you look you will see many signs of Allah's mercy.  The rain, the love of a mother, the comfort of your bed... Why pain?  Pain is a mercy as it keeps you alive.  Without pain the body would disintegrate through lack of attention.  It's not fun, but it has a merciful outcome.  Why animals kill and people hurt one another?  Free will.  Its better to live in freedom with the possibility of experiencing the negative choices of other free will creatures against you then to live trapped in a perfect world without the freedom of choice.  This is a mercy.   In order to mitigate the harmful actions of free will creatures against others, Allah gave us additional mercy in the form of laws and commandments--to the effect of love one another and do good to others, etc.  We can choose now to follow a course where these bad things don't happen, we have the necessary tools and information.  This is mercy upon mercy.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk




Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk


Absolute_Agent

#194
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 20, 2019, 09:54:11 AM
"Protection." Yeah, sure. Like the "protection" the mafia gave to those under their thumb, as long as they pay up. Only this "protection," the jizya deal of pay up or die, was only ever offered to Christians and Jews. The polytheists were just murdered outright. You can try to twist history to suit your liking, but it's not getting past us.

Textbook frothing-at-the-mouth Islamophobic rant.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk