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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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Unbeliever

So, God (Allah) is omniscient? I've heard this before, from people who also believe that God (Allah) is absolutely free, and can do anything he wants to do because of his omnipotence.

But, if God (Allah) is omniscient, then he must have known, from eternity past, everything he would ever do and everything he would not ever do. Having that knowledge means he can never do anything he's always known he would not ever do, and he can never not do anything that he's always know he would do. He can never make a choice, because his entire existence and all of his actions have been foreseen by his omniscience from eternity past.

So God (Allah) cannot be free, absolutely or otherwise.

So a God that is both omniscient and free is a contradiction and so cannot exist.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 11:58:38 AM
God has no reason to be jealous since all false gods have been destroyed. 


I don't believe in any of those other Gods, either, any more than you do. I just go one step further and jettison belief in that final God as well.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Unbeliever on June 19, 2019, 01:51:07 PM
So, God (Allah) is omniscient? I've heard this before, from people who also believe that God (Allah) is absolutely free, and can do anything he wants to do because of his omnipotence.

But, if God (Allah) is omniscient, then he must have known, from eternity past, everything he would ever do and everything he would not ever do. Having that knowledge means he can never do anything he's always known he would not ever do, and he can never not do anything that he's always know he would do. He can never make a choice, because his entire existence and all of his actions have been foreseen by his omniscience from eternity past.

So God (Allah) cannot be free, absolutely or otherwise.

So a God that is both omniscient and free is a contradiction and so cannot exist.

This logical conundrum is easily explained.  Allah, being omnipotent, is capable of self-limitation, and self-obligation.   For instance He limits the expression of retribution in favor of mercy. Omniscience does not negate freedom of choice any more than knowing you like ice cream and will choose the pistachio flavor when you get the the shop undermines your freedom to do so.

As you can see the whole paradox exists due to faulty premises alone.

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Unbeliever

Your God is nothing but a word game, designed to make you feel better about yourself. How can you not feel great, given that the most powerful entity in the universe loves you and cares greatly about your well being? Look how important you are!
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 11:54:21 AM
No what I referred to is "I don't intend to [make an argument for the existence of God]".  I presented evidence for God but it was part of a different argument, over free will, in which the existence of God was a premise, not a conclusion.  As previously stated the existence of God, in my communication, is always a premise, never an argument.
Okay, but you're not going to get anywhere presenting it as a premise. We don't share it. You're not going to make any headway unless you build your arguments off things we agree with. There is no reason to accept the conclusion of a logical argument with a disputed premise.

Quote
An argument implies compulsion, thus, to argue for God's existence would violate the free will of someone who had not accepted it as a premise.  As a premise though, it can be either accepted or rejected freely.
This bogus, "I don't wanna violate your free will" argument is the most bullshit argument I've ever heard of and it won't fly. It doesn't work for why God won't show us himself, and it won't work for why you won't present your best argument either. It is clear that nothing you have in that head of yours destroyed your free will, so what makes you think that it can destroy ours?

Seriously, don't be worried about our pweschous widdle fwee weww. Lay it on us, best you got.

Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 12:07:56 PM
When one delves into sincere Islamic worship the love for Allah is so intense that music becomes an unwanted distraction.  Furthermore it promotes much corruption.

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Very Muslim of you.  Some Christians and some Jews also oppose singing etc as part of worship.  They have similar puritanical feelings.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absolute_Agent

#156
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 19, 2019, 02:06:20 PM
Okay, but you're not going to get anywhere presenting it as a premise. We don't share it. You're not going to make any headway unless you build your arguments off things we agree with. There is no reason to accept the conclusion of a logical argument with a disputed premise.
This bogus, "I don't wanna violate your free will" argument is the most bullshit argument I've ever heard of and it won't fly. It doesn't work for why God won't show us himself, and it won't work for why you won't present your best argument either. It is clear that nothing you have in that head of yours destroyed your free will, so what makes you think that it can destroy ours?

Seriously, don't be worried about our pweschous widdle fwee weww. Lay it on us, best you got.


I don't need or want to "get anywhere." I am aware that the existence of God cannot be proven, by design, and nor does it need to be.  Likewise it cannot be disproven.  It is not necessary to conclude a premise as true in order to evaluate the validity of an argument. The reason my beliefs don't violate my free will is because l choose them without any compulsion.  If you or anyone wanted to you could examine the scriptures and choose the same.

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Unbeliever on June 19, 2019, 02:02:43 PM
Your God is nothing but a word game, designed to make you feel better about yourself. How can you not feel great, given that the most powerful entity in the universe loves you and cares greatly about your well being? Look how important you are!
You're welcome to your opinion, but this is not the case. God is very real and I am a personal witness of this.

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Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 12:03:22 PM

Did you want an answer to this question or was it merely rhetorical?


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Answer if you wish.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

SoldierofFortune

Because Allah couldn't explain himself clearly and sufficiently in Quran, so this duty is his believers.
If the existence of Allah were clear enough, so any thinking man could easily believe that he exists.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Ernestine L. Rose, in A Defense of Atheism, 1878
If belief in God were natural, there would be no need to teach it. Children would possess it as well as adults, the layman as the priest, the heathen as much as the missionary. We don't have to teach the general elements of human nature - the five senses, seeing hearing, smelling, tasting, and feeling. They are universal; so would religion be if it were natural, but it is not. On the contrary, it is an interesting and demonstrable fact, that all children are atheists, and were religion not inculcated into their minds they would remain so. Even as it is, they are great skeptics, until made sensible of the potent weapon by which religion has ever been propagated, namely, fear - fear of the lash of public opinion here, and of a jealous, vindictive God hereafter. No; there is no religion in human nature, nor human nature in religion. It is purely artificial, the result of education, while atheism is natural, and, were the human mind not perverted and bewildered by the mysteries and follies of superstition, would be universal.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

Quote from: Peter William Atkins
Religion closes off the central questions of existence by attempting to dissuade us from further enquiry by asserting that we cannot ever hope to comprehend. We are, religion asserts, simply too puny. Through fear of being shown to be vacuous, religion denies the awesome power of human comprehension. It seeks to thwart, by encouraging awe in things unseen, the disclosure of the emptiness of faith. Religion, in contrast to science, deploys the repugnant view that the world is too big for our understanding. Science, in contrast to religion, opens up the great questions of being to rational discussion, to discussion with the prospect of resolution and elucidation. Science, above all, respects the power of the human intellect. Science is the apotheosis of the intellect and the consummation of the Rennaissance. Science respects more deeply the potential of humanity than religion ever can.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 02:24:41 PM
You're welcome to your opinion, but this is not the case. God is very real and I am a personal witness of this.

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I'm sure god is very real to you.  But that proves nothing to anybody in the world--except you.  Your personal belief is not proof of anything (other than you have beliefs) to anybody but you.  And that is your right--to believe as you wish.  Well, as long as you don't try to force your beliefs on me. 

One of the interesting observations I've made is that even among those who believe in the same god, no two believers hold the same beliefs as to what god does and does not do, of what god is and is not.  I would imagine your beliefs fall in line with that.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Absolute_Agent



Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2019, 03:13:43 PM
I'm sure god is very real to you.  But that proves nothing to anybody in the world--except you.  Your personal belief is not proof of anything (other than you have beliefs) to anybody but you.  And that is your right--to believe as you wish.  Well, as long as you don't try to force your beliefs on me. 

One of the interesting observations I've made is that even among those who believe in the same god, no two believers hold the same beliefs as to what god does and does not do, of what god is and is not.  I would imagine your beliefs fall in line with that.

Correct.

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Absolute_Agent

#164
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 19, 2019, 02:06:20 PM
It is clear that nothing you have in that head of yours destroyed your free will,

Thank you for that as it refutes an earlier contention by Hijiri and Sal1981 that my being a freethinking Muslim theist was a contradiction of terms.


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