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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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Absolute_Agent

#90
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 18, 2019, 02:22:44 PM
According to Charles Bradlaugh, "The atheist does not say," There is no God", but he says, "I know not what you mean by God"; the word God is to me a sound conveying no clear or distinct affirmation."

God is a word that has no referent.
It has many referents.  It comes from a Jewish contraption G-D which they used to substitute in place of the name of JHVH since they believed His name was too sacred to pronounce.  JHVH in turn was the name given Moses at the burning bush when he asked who was calling him.  It roughly means "He comes" or "He is becoming".  This in turn was an indirect reference to the true name of God, EHYH ("I AM that I AM" or "I AM the Existing") This same being claimed to be the El Shaddai formerly known by Abraham.  El Shaddai meaning "God of the Mountains." El is a contraction of the Sumerian word "Ilu" denoting "lofty one" and is the root of "Elohim" (plural gods) and "Allah" ("the God").  Baruch is partially correct that in terms of human understanding, monotheism is evolved from polytheism. 

However I would add that the Hebrews received and preserved a monotheistic tradition passed on through generations from father to son stretching back to Adam (AS).  In other words, the concept of a single universal transcendent absolute Creator Being has been with us humans since the dawn of civilization, couched as it has been, in a polytheistic context.

The pharoah Akhenaten is an interesting character in this regard; some propose that he and Moses are one and the same person.

https://grahamhancock.com/moses-akhenaten-same-person-osman/


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Baruch

#91
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 18, 2019, 02:41:51 PM

I don't know, you'd have to define it first. What does love mean? Is it a physiological condition of certain primates? Then it has a referent. Is it an abstraction that has no physical counterpart? Then maybe is has no referent. But even an abstraction can have a referent, if it can be rigorously defined, e.g., "triangle" can be rigorously defined, and so does have referents. But the word "God"? There are as many definitions for that word as there are believers, and can mean almost anything at all. A word that can mean anything at all actually means nothing at all.

Definitions ... well, that is philosophy/theology for you.  And since we can see this as a game, and see present and future possible moves, and as actors in nature, we play to win, even if cheating is necessary ...

Sorry, even triangle can't be easily defined.  It was naively defined by Euclid, but non-Euclidean geometry (spherical geometry for instance) gives a broader definition than plane geometry.  Fortunately in math, as the mathematician broadens and refines his abstract definitions, complete chaos is avoided.  But as the abstraction goes up, usability goes down.  Plane geometry is simply more useable than spherical geometry.  Plane geometry is useful for building a house.  Spherical geometry only becomes useful when you do long distance navigation (because the Earth is nearly a sphere).

It is OK to dispute definitions.  That is both useful for brainstorming, and for rhetorical combat.  In math, the peer community of mathematicians is constituted to come to an agreement.  The general public, less so.

Can I define G-d in a way that makes cogent sense to me?  I can, but it took nearly 60 years go get there (both rationally and empirically).  I was unable to accept earlier definitions of G-d (say St Anselm's Proof of God) for the same reason you might not be able to accept my definition.  It is based on my personal experience.  And even if we share some experiences, it is difficult for an organism to change its spots.

So shall we only work with agreed to terms and reason and evidence?  That doesn't leave any space for personal experience.  Subjectivity is ruled out at the start.  It is all science and no art.  Is life worth living without individuality, without art?  I am not ... Locutus of Borg.

Absolute_Agent ... this is what is specifically avoided by atheists, the historical definitions of things are suspect.  Unless one can derive something from the here and now, the evidence is ruled out.  In traditional scholarship of course, the whole history and variance of definitions is meat and potatoes.  Exegesis of scripture depends on it.  This is for example, a typical breakdown.  In tradition, "science" simply means "knowledge".  It could mean the particular exegesis of a certain verse by a certain scholar.  In modernity, "science" only means the current results produced by the current scientific method (which is tweaked over time as well).  By definition, modern science is objective, in a way that tradition is not.

In my case, I am happy to work with either definition (epistemically liberal).  I am not confused or scandalized, that in English, a given word can have more than one meaning ... I simply need to keep clear which meaning I am currently using.  I even feel free to tweak the definition of words in English, as necessary, to convey my own meaning ... in the same way a modern scientist might use the results of science to further tweak the method by which science occurs.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Sal1981

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 18, 2019, 01:59:20 PM
However the highway signs do give instructions to free will creatures--then you must think that the DOT violates your free will when the sign tells you which way to go.

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They're not operant on the mind; you can choose to ignore a road sign. They're more like information we act on.

I fail to see your point other than a pathetic attempt at gaslighting.

Baruch

Quote from: Sal1981 on June 18, 2019, 03:28:56 PM
They're not operant on the mind; you can choose to ignore a road sign. They're more like information we act on.

I fail to see your point other than a pathetic attempt at gaslighting.

Gaslighting?  To make someone think they are crazy?  Unnecessary, since all people are insane.  Whether they think they are or not.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Sal1981

Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2019, 03:31:24 PM
Gaslighting?  To make someone think they are crazy?  Unnecessary, since all people are insane.  Whether they think they are or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Sal1981 on June 18, 2019, 03:28:56 PM
They're not operant on the mind; you can choose to ignore a road sign. They're more like information we act on.

I fail to see your point other than a pathetic attempt at gaslighting.
One can also choose to ignore the scriptures. Choosing to follow the scriptures doesn't violate my free will anymore than following a road sign violates my free will.

Qur'an Surah Al-Kahf (18), Verse 29:

ÙˆÙŽÙ,ُÙ,,ِ اÙ,,Ù'Ø­ÙŽÙ,Ù'ُ Ù...ِن رÙ'َبÙ'ِكُÙ...Ù' فَÙ...ÙŽÙ† شَاءَ فَÙ,,Ù'يُؤÙ'Ù...ِن ÙˆÙŽÙ...ÙŽÙ† شَاءَ فَÙ,,Ù'ÙŠÙŽÙƒÙ'فُرÙ' إِنÙ'َا أَعÙ'تَدÙ'نَا Ù,,ِÙ,,ظÙ'َاÙ,,ِÙ...ِينَ نَارًا أَحَاطَ بِهِÙ...Ù' سُرَادِÙ,ُهَا وَإِن يَسÙ'تَغِيثُوا يُغَاثُوا بِÙ...َاءٍ كَاÙ,,Ù'Ù...ُهÙ'Ù,,ِ ÙŠÙŽØ´Ù'وِي اÙ,,Ù'وُجُوهَ بِئÙ'سَ اÙ,,Ø´Ù'َرَابُ وَسَاءَتÙ' Ù...ُرÙ'تَفَÙ,ًا

"Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!"

(English - Pickthal)

via iQuran

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Baruch

Quote from: Sal1981 on June 18, 2019, 03:33:03 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting


Quotegas·light
/ˈɡaslīt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
gerund or present participle: gaslighting
manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.
"in the first episode, Karen Valentine is being gaslighted by her husband"
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 18, 2019, 03:34:45 PM
One can also choose to ignore the scriptures. Choosing to follow the scriptures doesn't violate my free will anymore than following a road sign violates my free will.

Qur'an Surah Al-Kahf (18), Verse 29:

ÙˆÙŽÙ,ُÙ,,ِ اÙ,,Ù'Ø­ÙŽÙ,ُÙ' Ù...ِن رَÙ'بِÙ'كُÙ...Ù' فَÙ...ÙŽÙ† شَاءَ فَÙ,,Ù'يُؤÙ'Ù...ِن ÙˆÙŽÙ...ÙŽÙ† شَاءَ فَÙ,,Ù'ÙŠÙŽÙƒÙ'فُرÙ' إِنَÙ'ا أَعÙ'تَدÙ'نَا Ù,,ِÙ,,ظَÙ'اÙ,,ِÙ...ِينَ نَارًا أَحَاطَ بِهِÙ...Ù' سُرَادِÙ,ُهَا وَإِن يَسÙ'تَغِيثُوا يُغَاثُوا بِÙ...َاءٍ كَاÙ,,Ù'Ù...ُهÙ'Ù,,ِ ÙŠÙŽØ´Ù'وِي اÙ,,Ù'وُجُوهَ بِئÙ'سَ اÙ,,Ø´ÙŽÙ'رَابُ وَسَاءَتÙ' Ù...ُرÙ'تَفَÙ,ًا

"Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!"

(English - Pickthal)

via iQuran

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Exactly St Paul's opinion, from 600 years earlier.  Let sinners continue sinning (example of mercy, in the hope that they will stop, before at death it is impossible even for G-d to forgive).  Forgiveness only happens for the living in Christianity.  Some modern theologians are universalists however (everyone is forgiven in eternity, just not in temporal life).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Sal1981

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 18, 2019, 03:34:45 PM
One can also choose to ignore the scriptures. Choosing to follow the scriptures doesn't violate my free will anymore than following a road sign violates my free will.
So what? It's just a book.

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2019, 03:37:56 PM
Exactly St Paul's opinion, from 600 years earlier.  Let sinners continue sinning (example of mercy, in the hope that they will stop, before at death it is impossible even for G-d to forgive).  Forgiveness only happens for the living in Christianity.  Some modern theologians are universalists however (everyone is forgiven in eternity, just not in temporal life).
Yes-- but in Islam Allah can and does forgive many sins even after death, even after consignation to hellfire; He is abundantly merciful, Ar-Rahman.

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Unbeliever

Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2019, 03:37:56 PM
Exactly St Paul's opinion, from 600 years earlier.  Let sinners continue sinning (example of mercy, in the hope that they will stop, before at death it is impossible even for G-d to forgive).  Forgiveness only happens for the living in Christianity.  Some modern theologians are universalists however (everyone is forgiven in eternity, just not in temporal life).

Martin Luther on sin:
"God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world."

I guess if we don't sin then Jesus's "sacrifice" was unneeded.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Sal1981 on June 18, 2019, 03:39:34 PM
So what? It's just a book.

That is what the Nazis said as they burned them.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Sal1981 on June 18, 2019, 03:39:34 PM
So what? It's just a book.
So it refutes the claim that God sending us instructions is a violation of our free will.  They are provided for our benefit, but God is not forcing anyone to follow them.  Ergo, being a freethinking Muslim is not a contradiction of terms, as mistakenly asserted above.

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Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on June 18, 2019, 03:43:36 PM
Martin Luther on sin
"God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world."

As a promoter of Protestant revolution, and anti-Semitism, Luther had much sin to atone for.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 18, 2019, 03:44:24 PM
So it refutes the claim that God sending us instructions is a violation of our free will.  They are provided for our benefit, but God is not forcing anyone to follow them.  Ergo, being a freethinking Muslim is not a contradiction of terms, as mistakenly asserted above.

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Taqdir??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Islam
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.