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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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Blackleaf

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 18, 2019, 01:43:09 PM
Thanks but I'm not interested in pursuing this line of research.  I've seen a variety of Islamophobic pieces and they are inevitably two-dimensional and use silly logic.  I have studied a wide variety of authentic sources on Islam, and am able to see through these ploys.  If you want to learn about it from an American Sheik I recommend Hamza Yusuf:

Hamza Yusuf: The Science of the Shariah https://muslimcentral.com/hamza-yusuf-science-shariah/

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As I thought. Brainwashed zombie.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Hijiri Byakuren

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 18, 2019, 01:34:52 PM
So then, every time a car manufacturer sends an operators' manual with a new vehicle, they are violating free will?  And the signs on the highway telling which road goes where--that violates free will?  From what I understand, you think anytime instructions are given, this is interventionist and violates free will?

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False equivalency. The car manufacturer did not create me, they created the car: which, you will note, does not have free will as it was specifically built to be controlled by someone else.

You are claiming that the creator of the universe (whose existence you still have not proven) created life with free will, but then issued instructions to that life to live a certain way, which is a contradiction.
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

Unbeliever

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 18, 2019, 01:34:52 PM
So then, every time a car manufacturer sends an operators' manual with a new vehicle, they are violating free will?  And the signs on the highway telling which road goes where--that violates free will?  From what I understand, you think anytime instructions are given, this is interventionist and violates free will?

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It has yet to be demonstrated that "free will" even exists, much less that a God must abide by it.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Blackleaf

The Masked Arab is, as his name implies, Arabic. He grew up Muslim. He quotes his sources, and is very fair in his interpretations, quoting notable authority figures (who still believe in the texts). You can watch his videos in English or Arabic. Additionally, he makes it clear that what he says does not apply to the beliefs or behaviors of all Muslims. That you would label him "Islamophobic" speaks volumes about you.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 18, 2019, 01:49:01 PM
False equivalency. The car manufacturer did not create me, they created the car: which, you will note, does not have free will as it was specifically built to be controlled by someone else.

You are claiming that the creator of the universe (whose existence you still have not proven) created life with free will, but then issued instructions to that life to live a certain way, which is a contradiction.
However the highway signs do give instructions to free will creatures--then you must think that the DOT violates your free will when the sign tells you which way to go.

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Blackleaf on June 18, 2019, 01:57:22 PM
The Masked Arab is, as his name implies, Arabic. He grew up Muslim. He quotes his sources, and is very fair in his interpretations, quoting notable authority figures (who still believe in the texts). You can watch his videos in English or Arabic. Additionally, he makes it clear that what he says does not apply to the beliefs or behaviors of all Muslims. That you would label him "Islamophobic" speaks volumes about you.
I have also seen material by former Muslims and Arabs and likewise am familiar with the general types of reasons they have.  There's nothing worth my time there.  However if you personally have a particular argument on one particular concern about Islam then I'm open to discussion, if you agree to tackle one at a time. 

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Unbeliever on June 18, 2019, 01:54:19 PM
It has yet to be demonstrated that "free will" even exists, much less that a God must abide by it.
It's a topic I've debated, but fortunately Hijiri accepts it as a premise.

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Blackleaf

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 18, 2019, 02:04:02 PM
I have also seen material by former Muslims and Arabs and likewise am familiar with the general types of reasons they have.  There's nothing worth my time there.  However if you personally have a particular argument on one particular concern about Islam then I'm open to discussion, if you agree to tackle one at a time. 

I don't think so. You revealed your hand. You're not here on a pursuit of knowledge and enlightenment, you're here to share your beliefs. You're about as open minded as a Fox News host, maybe less.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Unbeliever

The term "God" hasn't even been defined, so none of us really knows what we're talking about when we say that God does or does not exist. If God is love, then if we believe in love then we believe in God. But if God is an omni-max deity then we can be sure that such a thing certainly does not exist, because too many of it's attributes are mutually contradictory.

But until we define the word we're just talking past each other.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Absolute_Agent



Quote from: Blackleaf on June 18, 2019, 02:08:21 PM
I don't think so. You revealed your hand. You're not here on a pursuit of knowledge and enlightenment, you're here to share your beliefs. You're about as open minded as a Fox News host, maybe less.

Then you misunderstood me.

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Unbeliever on June 18, 2019, 02:13:00 PM
The term "God" hasn't even been defined, so none of us really knows what we're talking about when we say that God does or does not exist. If God is love, then if we believe in love then we believe in God. But if God is an omni-max deity then we can be sure that such a thing certainly does not exist, because too many of it's attributes are mutually contradictory.

But until we define the word we're just talking past each other.
Excellent point.  For instance Hijiri's God is not the God I believe in.  This is why arguing over God's existence is rather pointless among other things. 

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Unbeliever

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 18, 2019, 02:19:41 PM
Excellent point.  For instance Hijiri's God is not the God I believe in.  This is why arguing over God's existence is rather pointless among other things. 

According to Charles Bradlaugh, "The atheist does not say," There is no God", but he says, "I know not what you mean by God"; the word God is to me a sound conveying no clear or distinct affirmation."

God is a word that has no referent.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on June 18, 2019, 02:22:44 PM
According to Charles Bradlaugh, "The atheist does not say," There is no God", but he says, "I know not what you mean by God"; the word God is to me a sound conveying no clear or distinct affirmation."

God is a word that has no referent.

That is the Logical Positivist view (lots of metaphysical words have no meaning).  It is hard to know where to draw the line on abstractions.  We can probably agree that car/automobile has a referent.  But does love have a referent?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 18, 2019, 01:49:01 PM
False equivalency. The car manufacturer did not create me, they created the car: which, you will note, does not have free will as it was specifically built to be controlled by someone else.

You are claiming that the creator of the universe (whose existence you still have not proven) created life with free will, but then issued instructions to that life to live a certain way, which is a contradiction.

Part of the conundrum of the idea of free will.  Can there be free will, if there isn't complete freedom from physical law?  Even QM doesn't get you out of that problem, since it deterministically says eg: that there are three possibilities ... A=25%, B=50% and C=25%.  The determinism is just one step farther back in the background.

As far as we know, any instructions to life is thru the DNA plus the natural law mediated history of the organism.  We don't have post-facto control of our genetics/embryology.  And we can't choose to "fall up".  We can vary the rate at which we fall down (hang glider).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2019, 02:35:55 PM
That is the Logical Positivist view (lots of metaphysical words have no meaning).  It is hard to know where to draw the line on abstractions.  We can probably agree that car/automobile has a referent.  But does love have a referent?


I don't know, you'd have to define it first. What does love mean? Is it a physiological condition of certain primates? Then it has a referent. Is it an abstraction that has no physical counterpart? Then maybe is has no referent. But even an abstraction can have a referent, if it can be rigorously defined, e.g., "triangle" can be rigorously defined, and so does have referents. But the word "God"? There are as many definitions for that word as there are believers, and can mean almost anything at all. A word that can mean anything at all actually means nothing at all.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman