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Quest for Truth

Started by Absolute_Agent, June 16, 2019, 09:02:36 PM

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2019, 09:48:29 AM
That is a very slippery definition of a god.  I see no evidence who-so-ever of that type of being or force to exist.  But I do see evidence to the opposite.  For example--you say god is 'Abundantly Merciful'.  Let's look at nature.  I don't see mercy reflected there.  I'm sure your god has a provision against killing, yet he created humans so that they had to kill to live; they have no choice.  Plants live thru the process of photosynthesis and therefore gather all their energy from the sun.  All animals have to either kill plants or other animals to gather energy to live.  Spiders kill and eat flies alive; lions kill and eat gazelles--I see much pain and suffering in that process.  How can a merciful god or entity produce such a system when it could have designed it in any way it chose to?  I count that as evidence against there being such a thing. 

Your god does not exist and was proposed by people who knew how to exploit your type of god (or any god for that matter).  Your scriptures (and all others) are a man made fiction as is your god.
If you look you will see many signs of Allah's mercy.  The rain, the love of a mother, the comfort of your bed... Why pain?  Pain is a mercy as it keeps you alive.  Without pain the body would disintegrate through lack of attention.  It's not fun, but it has a merciful outcome.  Why animals kill and people hurt one another?  Free will.  Its better to live in freedom with the possibility of experiencing the negative choices of other free will creatures against you then to live trapped in a perfect world without the freedom of choice.  This is a mercy.   In order to mitigate the harmful actions of free will creatures against others, Allah gave us additional mercy in the form of laws and commandments--to the effect of love one another and do good to others, etc.  We can choose now to follow a course where these bad things don't happen, we have the necessary tools and information.  This is mercy upon mercy.

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Unbeliever

Quote from: Sir David Attenborough
I don't know [why we're here]. People sometimes say to me, 'Why don't you admit that the humming bird, the butterfly, the Bird of Paradise are proof of the wonderful things produced by Creation?' And I always say, well, when you say that, you've also got to think of a little boy sitting on a river bank, like here, in West Africa, that's got a little worm, a living organism, in his eye and boring through the eyeball and is slowly turning him blind. The Creator God that you believe in, presumably, also made that little worm. Now I personally find that difficult to accommodate...
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Draconic Aiur

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 03:26:26 PM
Thank you for that as it refutes an earlier contention by Hijiri and Sal1981 that my being a freethinking Muslim theist was a contradiction of terms.


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Since when do the the words 'freethinking' and 'Muslim' go together?

Unbeliever

Does seem rather an oxymoron, huh?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Blackleaf

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 12:07:56 PM
When one delves into sincere Islamic worship the love for Allah is so intense that music becomes an unwanted distraction.  Furthermore it promotes much corruption.

Again...your religion is pro-creativity? I guess in the same way it's for intellectual free thinking. Which is not at all.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Absolute_Agent

#170
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 19, 2019, 04:10:30 PM
Again...your religion is pro-creativity? I guess in the same way it's for intellectual free thinking. Which is not at all.
There are many ways to express creativity other than music.  In fact music hinders creativity by entraining the brain into a low-level trance state.

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Blackleaf

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 04:21:57 PM
There are many ways to express creativity other than music.  In fact music hinders creativity by entraining the brain into a semi-trance state.

A semi-trance state? You mean like prayer? Funny, when I was Christian, music was what made me feel close to God. Your arbitrary rules won't even let you enjoy it. What a pitiable existence where you're not even allowed one of life's most basic of pleasures.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on June 19, 2019, 03:53:44 PM
Since when do the the words 'freethinking' and 'Muslim' go together?
There is more freedom of thought in Islam than any other religion, or philosophical or scientific system of thought. 

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Absolute_Agent

Quote from: Blackleaf on June 19, 2019, 04:26:25 PM
A semi-trance state? You mean like prayer? Funny, when I was Christian, music was what made me feel close to God. Your arbitrary rules won't even let you enjoy it. What a pitiable existence where you're not even allowed one of life's most basic of pleasures.
Prayer and meditation can lead to high-level trance states in which the entire intellectual spectrum of activity is engaged, without artificial external constraints.  Music produces a very low-level trance that primarily engages the lower animal impulses, while drowning out more refined intellectual activity.

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Blackleaf

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 04:29:22 PM
There is more freedom of thought in Islam than any other religion, or philosophical or scientific system of thought. 

That's not saying much. Also, I highly doubt that Islam promotes more freedom of thought than the Eastern religions, such as Buddhism. Don't think I didn't notice how you bragged about how Muslims murdered Pagans to the point of their religions nearly going extinct. Freedom of thought. Give me a break.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Mike Cl

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 03:15:24 PM

Correct.

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Thank you.  It is interesting to know that your beliefs are different than any other believer and that you realize that.  How astute of you.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

#176
Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 04:21:57 PM
There are many ways to express creativity other than music.  In fact music hinders creativity by entraining the brain into a low-level trance state.

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Which Sufi sheik taught you that?  You are aware that Salafists consider Sufism, even orthodox Sufism to be ... bid'ah (heresy).  Punishable by death.  Most famous in our time being the fatwa calling for the death of Salman Rushdie.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

#177
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 19, 2019, 04:26:25 PM
A semi-trance state? You mean like prayer? Funny, when I was Christian, music was what made me feel close to God. Your arbitrary rules won't even let you enjoy it. What a pitiable existence where you're not even allowed one of life's most basic of pleasures.

IMHO ... Islamic rejection of melodic music ... is because of its association with disreputable people (theater, musicians, courtesans).  Pre-Muhammad Arabic literature was heroic and romantic verse, most of which was destroyed on the advent of Islam ... for tribal and puritanical reasons.  I assume they had a folk music too, undoubtably also suppressed.

Of course there are many examples today, of folk Muslim music, but like the use of qat in Yemen etc. this is haram (illegal).  But this was due to the cultures that were pre-Muslim, which resisted complete assimilation.  An example of this is female circumcision, an African custom, that orthodox Islam has been unable to suppress.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

#178
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on June 19, 2019, 02:38:03 PM
Because Allah couldn't explain himself clearly and sufficiently in Quran, so this duty is his believers.
If the existence of Allah were clear enough, so any thinking man could easily believe that he exists.

It is miraculously clear to native Arabic speakers (particularly from Arabia) ... the unique poetic diction of the Quran being "miraculous".  Non-native Arabic speaker or non-Arabic speakers have to take their word for it ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 02:22:27 PM
It is not necessary to conclude a premise as true in order to evaluate the validity of an argument.
Validity is not the end-all, be-all of an argument. An argument with validity but without soundness is an interesting exercise, but doesn't actually show anything of consequence.

Quote
The reason my beliefs don't violate my free will is because l choose them without any compulsion.
Don't be obtuse. What lead you to make that choice and not the contrary? Did you flip a coin?

Quote
If you or anyone wanted to you could examine the scriptures and choose the same.
I've had my fill of examining scriptures, thanks. If you're not brought up to believe them, they are stories and nothing more.

Quote from: Absolute_Agent on June 19, 2019, 03:26:26 PM
Thank you for that as it refutes an earlier contention by Hijiri and Sal1981 that my being a freethinking Muslim theist was a contradiction of terms.
Eh, hate to tell you this, but having free will and being freethinking are not synonymous. My comment doesn't refute Hijiri or Sal in the slightest.
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