Author Topic: Quest for Truth  (Read 20938 times)

Online Mr.Obvious

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Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2019, 07:59:24 AM »
When I say I am a mystic, with alternative access to these ideas that don't rely on conventional means ... I mean it.  Everyone is unique.  I am just more unique than average.

Claiming yourself to be more unique than other is actually quite average and mundane. ;)
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2019, 09:58:52 AM »
What about the box that Muslims put Allah in?  The daughters of Allah for example ...



G-d has no gender and is all genders.  In many ways, as we understand birth today, a creator doesn't lean male, but female.  The role of Virgin Mary is something Christianity has over Islam and Judaism.  But only if one admits that Judaism and Christianity also arose out of polytheism.

And monotheism has to be taken with irony, since all monotheism is derivative of polytheism ... it begs the question.
Allah doesn't fit in that box either.  In fact, doesn't your tradition state somewhere that the moment you can conceive of what G-d is, that is inherently an idol?  This is consistent with the Islamic understanding.  I would agree with you that Allah has no gender, and most Muslims, if they logically examined their tradition, would also agree that the masculine pronoun is used for convenience only, since we have no personal pronoun in our language that is not gender-specific.

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« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 10:29:36 AM by Absolute_Agent »

Online Mr.Obvious

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Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2019, 10:05:18 AM »
Lol, it'd be swell if Allah's followers went around saying stuff like: Allah, Xe wants you convert and follow Xis/Xer teachings!
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2019, 10:12:59 AM »
What about the box that Muslims put Allah in?  The daughters of Allah for example ...



G-d has no gender and is all genders.  In many ways, as we understand birth today, a creator doesn't lean male, but female.  The role of Virgin Mary is something Christianity has over Islam and Judaism.  But only if one admits that Judaism and Christianity also arose out of polytheism.

And monotheism has to be taken with irony, since all monotheism is derivative of polytheism ... it begs the question.
Monotheism may be derivative of polytheism in terms of the evolution of human understanding about God, I will give you that; however the most correct statement of Allah is that He is fundamentally characterized by singularity, one-ness & unity, or what we call "tawheed". 

Surah Al-Ikhlas, Verse 1:
قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ

"Say: Allah, the One!"

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« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 10:42:58 AM by Absolute_Agent »

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2019, 12:43:14 PM »
I find that I am free through submitting my mental and physical faculties to the originator, the fashioner and designer of such faculties.  Some think that in order to be free you must have absolute license, or that freedom is like a blank check to do whatever you please that someone hands you.  However my definition of freedom is that it is a state of being in which one is in conformity to one's reason for existence, which necessarily involves limits, which limits do not cut out goodness but rather cultivate more goodness by the avoidance of harmful excesses to which all are prone...  Furthermore it is not something merely inherited; each generation, each individual, possesses the right to freedom but cannot come into that right or enjoy without constant effort. This is in accord with our essential natures.  Freedom always requires struggle--something in Islam called "jihad".

Yes, I am aware of the lengths Christians and Muslims take to reverse the definition of words like "freedom," "love," and "mercy." It doesn't change the fact that you've allowed other people to tell you what to think, and that makes you the opposite of a freethinker.

However I can understand why, not believing in the existence of a Creator, my position would appear as nonsense to you.  Or, assuming that the Allah of Islam stays inside the box constructed around Him by Christians, you would mistakenly imagine Him to be a petty tyrant who allows no intellectual endeavor, or who cannot tolerate creativity.  What I find however is that Islam was more effective in liberating my consciousness then a mere negation of Christianity and religion itself, because it replaced a false idea of God with that which befits His transcendent majesty. He is more, not less, of all those values I hold dear including freedom, dignity and intelligence.

Oh, trust me. I don't think Islam is ridiculous because of how Christians frame God, or because of some residual Christian bias. Islam is ridiculous by its own merits. Your god isn't a petty tyrant? What texts are you reading? When Allah is telling people to cut off the hands and feet of people who don't believe in him, that's a clear cut case of god being a tyrant. But let's ignore those examples, because God describes himself as being loving, so he clearly does those clearly evil things out of love.

Your god tolerates creativity? Muhammad was upset when he found pillows with pictures on them in his house, and he's your most important prophet. Any depictions of living things in art was considered evil by him. You know how much art depicts living things? Quite a lot of it. How much more intolerant of creativity can you get?

Your god is for intelligence? What is the punishment for leaving Islam? We both know the answer. You can't claim your god is for intellectual thinking when coming to conclusions that are contrary to your religion is punishable by death.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2019, 12:53:50 PM »
Christianity and Islam are totally different, you guys! Really!

"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2019, 01:39:23 PM »
In that case, I'm a theistic atheist about to buy a half box of round square donuts with an odd yet also even amount of Quatloos.
Brother, can you spare a Quatloo?


:-P
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2019, 01:48:23 PM »
The role of Virgin Mary is something Christianity has over Islam and Judaism.

Only because the Virgin Mary was practically forced on the RCC due to the popularity of the godess meme that they couldn't seem to get rid of. The hierarchy of the RCC had no desire at all for a goddess figure, but had to accept one, on their own terms.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2019, 01:54:44 PM »
Yes, I am aware of the lengths Christians and Muslims take to reverse the definition of words like "freedom," "love," and "mercy." It doesn't change the fact that you've allowed other people to tell you what to think, and that makes you the opposite of a freethinker.

Indeed, a person's "belief" in any God is based solely on the trust they have in those who told them that the God exists, and that they should believe in it.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline aitm

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2019, 02:04:26 PM »
I am overwhelmed with a sense of complacency......welcome...
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2019, 02:57:38 PM »
I had little choice growing up but to practice Christianity.  It always felt like something forced upon me rather than chosen.  I loved the Bible however and the more I learned the more it was apparent that Christian dogma was deviant in certain ways from the teachings of Christ and the Bible in general. 

As for taqqiyya, it is permitted to use deception, when one's life is threatened, to escape danger.  Besides that, dishonesty is forbidden in Islam.  However as you can see I am freely sharing my opinions as is everyone else--one of the blessings of a democratic system.

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Welcome.
Hate to break this to you, but there is no Truth.  Allah and your scriptures are fictions.  But in this democratic system you are free to believe any and all fantasies you wish.  You see, Bugs Bunny and Paul Bunyan are as real as your god. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2019, 03:43:30 PM »
Yes I am 100% Muslim and also a freethinking theist.
This is a contradiction in terms.
Black lives matter, feminism is good, religion is bullshit, and if you disagree with me on any of these points you are a fucking moron.

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Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2019, 03:44:45 PM »
Quote
Raised by fundamentalist sola-scriptura Protestant Christian parents in an interdenominational environment,


Ouch, you poor guy.  Well, welcome aboard. 
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2019, 03:44:55 PM »
Yes, I am aware of the lengths Christians and Muslims take to reverse the definition of words like "freedom," "love," and "mercy." It doesn't change the fact that you've allowed other people to tell you what to think, and that makes you the opposite of a freethinker.

Oh, trust me. I don't think Islam is ridiculous because of how Christians frame God, or because of some residual Christian bias. Islam is ridiculous by its own merits. Your god isn't a petty tyrant? What texts are you reading? When Allah is telling people to cut off the hands and feet of people who don't believe in him, that's a clear cut case of god being a tyrant. But let's ignore those examples, because God describes himself as being loving, so he clearly does those clearly evil things out of love.

Your god tolerates creativity? Muhammad was upset when he found pillows with pictures on them in his house, and he's your most important prophet. Any depictions of living things in art was considered evil by him. You know how much art depicts living things? Quite a lot of it. How much more intolerant of creativity can you get?

Your god is for intelligence? What is the punishment for leaving Islam? We both know the answer. You can't claim your god is for intellectual thinking when coming to conclusions that are contrary to your religion is punishable by death.
Nearly everything you said about Islam is based on a superficial caricature of the religion, courtesy of the anti-Muslim propaganda rampant in the media.  If I can convey an accurate sense of the meaning and purpose of this religion, then I will have afforded you the freedom to have a more informed opinion about it than otherwise possible.  However if your goal is simply to use my religion as a bashing board for your prejudices then have at it.  My mind is mine to use as I wish.  If I choose to adopt the principles of Islam then I have not abdicated my free will or intelligence any more than a soldier abdicates his right to freedom by enlisting himself in the army--despite the fact that certain actions will thereupon become punishable by death for him that previously were not-- for example, disobeying a direct order from an officer in time of battle.

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Re: Quest for Truth
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2019, 03:49:26 PM »
This is a contradiction in terms.
Incorrect, and this is an invalid argument:

"You use a lot of flowery language in your post. That alone is a red flag indicating you came here with the intent to proselytize, not engage in honest discussion."

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