Author Topic: Straight pride parade.  (Read 2330 times)

Online Hydra009

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #135 on: June 10, 2019, 09:00:39 PM »
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True, but I feel like you could say the same about "Commie"; there were certainly people who actually did fit the political and social mold of a communist, but the overwhelming majority of "commies" were simply people who held views slightly more progressive or socially aware than the person judging them (someone who was, at least socially, noticeably right-of-centre themselves).
I agree with that.  In fact, the red scare stuff is a fairly apt comparison.  They exist and they have some small influence, but not to the perceived extent.  People need to get a grip, and not just the SJWs anymore.

Offline Sal1981

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #136 on: June 10, 2019, 11:27:14 PM »
No matter how much I hate nazis, I wouldn't deny them their right of Free Speech.

In fact, I would use my own Free Speech to id who the nazis were, instead of letting such contentious viewpoints, both political and ideological, to fester underground, and instead argue with them using logic and reasoning. That is favorable to throwing bricks and punches. That will only justify the other side "look, we're being repressed" they would cry, and people would rally to the perceived underdog. Make jokes. Mock them. Use facts and logic.

That's why I dislike groups like Antifa and nationalistic groups like NSM and others. They WANT things to escalate. Everybody calm the fuck down and discuss things using words.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Offline Cavebear

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #137 on: June 10, 2019, 11:32:46 PM »
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No matter how much I hate nazis, I wouldn't deny them their right of Free Speech.

In fact, I would use my own Free Speech to id who the nazis were, instead of letting such contentious viewpoints, both political and ideological, to fester underground, and instead argue with them using logic and reasoning. That is favorable to throwing bricks and punches. That will only justify the other side "look, we're being repressed" they would cry, and people would rally to the perceived underdog. Make jokes. Mock them. Use facts and logic.

That's why I dislike groups like Antifa and nationalistic groups like NSM and others. They WANT things to escalate. Everybody calm the fuck down and discuss things using words.

And use words you would use to friends, too...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Shiranu

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #138 on: June 11, 2019, 12:00:00 AM »
Quote
In fact, I would use my own Free Speech to id who the nazis were, instead of letting such contentious viewpoints, both political and ideological, to fester underground, and instead argue with them using logic and reasoning.

Karl Popper addressed this perfectly in 1945 with his, "Paradox of Intolerance"...

Quote
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.


...


But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.

 They will continue to fester underground, silenced or not. The roots of bigotry never show their true colours until they begin to sprout and bloom. But a weed that has been kept in check with pesticide is easier to chop down than one left to grow as it pleases.

The hateful will always keep their hatred a secret until they feel they have the numbers to back it up. It's not the law that keeps these groups from being active, it's the opinions of the people and the size of their own flock. Do you really think, looking at human history, that reason and logic are more powerful than emotion and fear?

I would be ecstatic for that world, but it's not the one we live in. And history is full of the dead bodies of people who put their faith in the rationality and logic of the masses only to watch them turn around and burn them alive for those very traits.

Besides, most Western countries are extremely intolerant of Nazis and the like and yet rank higher than us on human rights and freedoms.
Quod est inferius, est sicut quod est superius.
Et quod est superius, est sicut quod est inferius.

Online Hydra009

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #139 on: June 11, 2019, 12:03:50 AM »
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Do you really think, looking at human history, that reason and logic are more powerful than emotion and fear?
Imho, if it were, nazis would be a foreign concept to us.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #140 on: June 11, 2019, 01:35:41 AM »
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Imho, if it were, nazis would be a foreign concept to us.

There are times when people are frightened by loss of social or economic power, losing jobs or stability..  In those times, demagogues can gain power.  The US was on the edge of that in 2016.  It won't last but it shows the threat of it.

I also want to say that people like Nazis have been around forever. They weren't the first to massacre minorties.  It's a historical habit.  And they weren't the last.  Stalin did worse later, so did Mao, Pol Pot and others.

The goal of Western Democracy is to try to reduce that.  It can't be stopped entirely in the present world, but having a goal in that direction is worthwhile.  Progress is damn slow sometimes...

But things do slowly improve.  China will, one day, finally get engaged in the legitimate world market, Russia will move toward some sort of general people-oriented government after Putin or maybe a successor, North Korea will finally fail, etc. 

I'm not suggesting there will be any utopia this century, but I do think think things will generally change positively.  We used to kill people in the neighboring village for food, then we made empires to steal food and resources with armies, then Monarchies to steal from far away places.  I think those are in the past. 

Now we need to take a new step.  I don't know what it will be.  Probably not a World Government but some sort of general business model of exploring space and mining asteroids.  I bet the sci-fi writers are right. Imaging "something better" is a good bet.

Not that there won't be hiccups on the way, but most people want "better" rather than "worse" and there are more people than dictator wanna-bes.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #141 on: June 11, 2019, 04:57:02 AM »
We are open to demagogues every 2 years ... you are so partisan, I bet your favorite sports teams never even have to take a crap.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #142 on: June 11, 2019, 06:23:27 AM »
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We are open to demagogues every 2 years ... you are so partisan, I bet your favorite sports teams never even have to take a crap.

We are indeed open to partisans every 2 years and Crazy Presidents every 4 for that matter.  Fortunately, we generally avoid that.  One of my favorite books is 'They Also Ran' by Irving Stone.  The Presidential races are arranged by chapter according to some common background (the lawyers, the generals, the judges etc).  After each chapter, he discusses how history viewed the winners and how the loser might have done better or not.  I highly recommend the book.  But the important thing is that it seems the voters seem to have picked the best person at the time. 

Some of them were Democrats and some of them were Republicans and I don't care much about that.  What I care about is "the right person at the right time"  and also that "some people rise to the job".

What we have today is a President who the voters did not choose by majority (and that seldom ends well).  And worse, one who was never qualified to be a mayor never mind president.  AND corrupt.

Out nation will survive that, as it has some other Presidents totally unqualified for the job.  But Trump is going to go down as the Worst.

And for whatever it is worth, I'm pretty sure the home team players do crap...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline _Xenu_

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #143 on: June 11, 2019, 08:35:28 AM »
Keep it civil guys, I am getting complaints about personal insults on this thread.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #144 on: June 11, 2019, 08:55:06 AM »
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Keep it civil guys, I am getting complaints about personal insults on this thread.

OK.  Good to keep the ad hominems down.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #145 on: June 11, 2019, 03:09:21 PM »
In case it hasn't been said before yet, everyone calm your fucking tits. Everyone.

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #146 on: June 11, 2019, 05:31:53 PM »
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Just to open a discussion then, what would you do about militant sjws, those in the system or in public positions who influence and push that toxic mindset, because that kind of behavior isn't something I'd ignore anymore then if joe hick wanted to ban abortions or gay marriage.
I believe that's covered under, "It's one thing if you were just minding your own business and you get attacked, but quite another to bait that kind of response purposefully." It's not that you ignore the behavior; it's that you don't specifically invite attack. In these situations you describe above, you didn't invite the outrage by purposefully spoiling for it. It's in the nature of these people to find offense everywhere they go, and it's even in their manifesto that their bigotry-of-the-week is to be actively sought and will be found even if it's not there. Then you make them look ridiculous.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Straight pride parade.
« Reply #147 on: June 11, 2019, 10:17:07 PM »
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Keep it civil guys, I am getting complaints about personal insults on this thread.

My apologies if I went too far.  Sometimes humor is meant innocently but gets out of bounds.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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