Author Topic: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?  (Read 1032 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2019, 08:47:12 PM »
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That's a really interesting issue. I'm guessing that the clergy in America painted Hitler as an atheist fearing that people might see him as a Christian. Nowadays Christian apologists love to tell people that Hitler was an atheist. I suppose the message is that people better believe in God or turn into a Nazi!

I've read at least two books about Stalin and have watched several documentaries about him. He was driven primarily by the communist revolution. His atheism didn't figure much in what he did.

Germans at the time, compared Hitler to Jesus vis-a-vis the Oberammergau Passion Play.  Romans at the time of Constantine, compared him to Jesus' second coming.  There is parallel megalomania.

In the Anglosphere, Catholics aren't considered Christians.  So in my geography, Hitler would not be considered a Christian.  Stalin had been a seminary student of the Georgian Church, but would not be considered a Christian for the same reason.  For Anglophones of earlier times, non-English speakers (say Irish) were considered uncivilized.

Most former Christians posting here, are ex-Protestant fundies.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2019, 08:48:10 PM »
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I do understand that christianity, by itself, while being violent from its inception, may not be responsible for all of the violence of the world--but substitute 'organized religion' for christianity and I maintain that that is the cause of most of the violence of the world.  If organized religion could be eradicated from this world, it would become a more peaceful and thoughtful place to live.

You must also eliminate all governments.  They are violence based too.  That is what ties together all the various sociopathic or protest activity of the 60s.  That and drugs.  For almost all history, organized religion is a servant of the State.  There are very few theocracies, mostly because the strong-men beat up the 4-eyed priests.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 08:51:56 PM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2019, 02:04:02 PM »
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You must also eliminate all governments.  They are violence based too.  That is what ties together all the various sociopathic or protest activity of the 60s.  That and drugs.  For almost all history, organized religion is a servant of the State.  There are very few theocracies, mostly because the strong-men beat up the 4-eyed priests.
I have an unproven hypothesis (too lazy to prove or disprove it) of humans when they first began grouping together.  Clearly (at least to me), the strongest (usually male) person would become the leader.  Later on I envision a smart but relative puny guy growing tired to being pushed around and dictated to by the big guy.  He realized he understood some things better than the brute and he saw that a god or gods must be responsible for all that was and he was glib.  So, 'god did it' was born and it gave our nerd a different power base.  Sometimes the nerd was in power, sometimes the brute and at times, both.  Government and religion was born.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline aitm

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2019, 02:43:08 PM »
or where the concept of "do unto others" first flirted the mind. One guy being bullied looked at the other two being bullied as well and the three of them locked eyes and the realization was born. So self preservation by cooperation, turns quickly into "do unto others". Bully gets head bashed into mush and the three of them finally get laid as well. Win win.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2019, 02:58:04 PM »
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I have an unproven hypothesis (too lazy to prove or disprove it) of humans when they first began grouping together.  Clearly (at least to me), the strongest (usually male) person would become the leader.  Later on I envision a smart but relative puny guy growing tired to being pushed around and dictated to by the big guy.  He realized he understood some things better than the brute and he saw that a god or gods must be responsible for all that was and he was glib.  So, 'god did it' was born and it gave our nerd a different power base.  Sometimes the nerd was in power, sometimes the brute and at times, both.  Government and religion was born.

The nerd was a medicine man.  Not the same as a chief (see Native American analogy).  Sitting Bull vs Crazy Horse.  That was hunter-gatherer.  A shaman is a special person who has an alternative personality ... high functional autist/survivor of mental health problem.  The chief is head of hunting and war parties.  Who was in charge at Little Big Horn isn't clear.  Sitting Bull has the visions, Crazy Horse has to do the deed.

With agriculture, things change.  In Sumeria, you start with a priest-king (en), but when inter-city warfare develops, the war-king (lugal) takes over.  Initially temporarily, eventually permanently.  At that point the high-priest (ensi) is always subordinate.  The priest develops from the taboo men's club, the priestess develops from the taboo women's club.  But with agriculture, the sexes aren't equal, patriarchy happens ... because now they know how an impregnation works.  Women are no longer magical.  Women's clubs are still taboo to men, down into Classical times.  "Man" no longer just means "male" but also "people in general".  Women have coed activities, in addition to taboo female activities.  War in particular, remains a taboo male activity.

In hunger-gatherer times, you have nebulous mythology, with a high male god (Deus in PIE is high god/generic).  With civilization the myths become elaborate (Zeus/Jupiter (alternative name Deus)), and subordinate gods are like craft specialists in cities (hunter-gatherers were jack of all trades).  Notice by then Zeus is chief philanderer, the man has become the source of life, because no microscopes).  Zeus is even able to give birth artificially (Athena/Bacchus).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 03:05:45 PM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2019, 03:08:58 PM »
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or where the concept of "do unto others" first flirted the mind. One guy being bullied looked at the other two being bullied as well and the three of them locked eyes and the realization was born. So self preservation by cooperation, turns quickly into "do unto others". Bully gets head bashed into mush and the three of them finally get laid as well. Win win.

Chimps are more patriarchal/harem.  We are more like Bonobos ... a matriarchy like lions.  The male lion isn't the boss, he is the tolerated sperm donor.

On the other hand, chimps, they have a very dominant male, but if he goes nuts, the other males finish him.  Otherwise he gets all the girls.  There is no permanent overthrow, just a replacement (a lot like humans).  Like a stallion.  Horses being herbivores, don't need a chief hunter, the sexes are more equal).
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline aitm

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2019, 09:35:19 PM »
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Chimps are more patriarchal/harem.  We are more like Bonobos ... a matriarchy like lions.  The male lion isn't the boss, he is the tolerated sperm donor.

On the other hand, chimps, they have a very dominant male, but if he goes nuts, the other males finish him.  Otherwise he gets all the girls.  There is no permanent overthrow, just a replacement (a lot like humans).  Like a stallion.  Horses being herbivores, don't need a chief hunter, the sexes are more equal).
Thats nice....er....I prefer my version.....,makes a little more sense.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2019, 01:23:11 AM »
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Thats nice....er....I prefer my version.....,makes a little more sense.

So you prefer the mating rituals of aardvarks? (sarc)  This bird, gets the bird ...

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« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 01:53:10 AM by Baruch »
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May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2019, 01:06:49 PM »
Well I suppose communism is atheistic in the sense that Karl Marx did call for the abolition of organized religion. On the other hand, some religions are atheistic and some theists are non-religious, so it depends on if you think Marx was against theism as well. If you want to argue that things like Stalin's purges happened because of atheism, I suppose you aren't technically wrong.

Hitler was many things, but I'm reasonably certain that "atheist" was not one of them. Officially he was a Roman Catholic, unofficially he was into some weird occult shit, and either way he definitely believed in at least one god.
"Existence is beautiful, if you let it be. Life is not a question. There does not need to be an answer."
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Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2019, 02:17:31 PM »
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How do atheists respond to the charge that atheism leads to genocide and other horrors?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2019, 02:19:19 PM »
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Well I suppose communism is atheistic in the sense that Karl Marx did call for the abolition of organized religion. On the other hand, some religions are atheistic and some theists are non-religious, so it depends on if you think Marx was against theism as well. If you want to argue that things like Stalin's purges happened because of atheism, I suppose you aren't technically wrong.

Hitler was many things, but I'm reasonably certain that "atheist" was not one of them. Officially he was a Roman Catholic, unofficially he was into some weird occult shit, and either way he definitely believed in at least one god.

There is overlap between materialism, atheism and communism.  They aren't equal, but they do correlate ... as a modern rejection of humanism, spiritualism and democracy ... which came together in Germany and Russia.  Here, many are ex-Christians.  Their POV is based on where they came from.  But that doesn't make them equal on anything else.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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