Author Topic: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?  (Read 1033 times)

Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« on: May 19, 2019, 09:57:26 AM »
As many of you should know, many Christian apologists respond to charges made by atheists accusing Christians of belonging to a violent religion by saying: "You atheists do it too and much more than we ever did!" Apologists cite people like Stalin and Hitler whom they say murdered millions and did so because atheism caused them to do so.

How do atheists respond to the charge that atheism leads to genocide and other horrors?

I can honestly say that although I'm an atheist, I have no desire at all to murder anyone. I don't see how it logically follows that since there are no gods, then I should hurt anybody. Any person who does desire to hurt people thinking that doing so results from her atheism is not only evil but very illogical.

But not everybody feels the way I do, of course. It's possible that some people do  need the threat of divine retribution to keep them in line. Maybe that's what apologists are telling us: they need the threat of divine punishment to prevent them from hurting people. Simply treating people well to maintain social harmony is not enough for them, and they project this feeling onto other people.

In any case, I'm not an atheist because of the moral implications of not believing in any gods. I'm an atheist because I cannot buy the claim that gods exist. So even if it was true that atheism leads to various evils, I don't see how I can be convinced that any gods exist.

Offline Munch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 11:24:49 AM »
Atheism isn't an ideology, its an absence of an ideology. Hitler and Starlin had there own political ideology and world views that lead to the wars and deaths they created.


Offline Draconic Aiur

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2019, 12:16:09 PM »
Hitler was a christian.

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2019, 12:29:50 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Atheism isn't an ideology, its an absence of an ideology. Hitler and Starlin had there own political ideology and world views that lead to the wars and deaths they created.

That's the way I see this issue. Yes, Stalin was an atheist, but he had a mustache too. I can just as easily claim that his mustache caused him to kill as his atheism may have!

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2019, 12:37:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hitler was a christian.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "Christian." Hitler was a Roman Catholic and never renounced that faith. But we really don't know what he really believed. On the other hand, we do know he did make use of Christianity to rally hatred against his perceived enemies most notably the Jews.

As you may know, Christian apologists can always use the "no true Christian" argument to defend Christianity on this issue. That is, they can argue that Hitler could not have been a Christian because he was a mass murderer.

But--is any Christian immune to "sin"? Just how sinful need a person be to no longer qualify as a Christian?

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2019, 12:48:52 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hitler was a christian.

He was raised Catholic, but after looking into it, it seems more likely that he was an atheist. He really did not like the church, although he attempted to manipulate the church to his advantage.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2019, 12:54:26 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As many of you should know, many Christian apologists respond to charges made by atheists accusing Christians of belonging to a violent religion by saying: "You atheists do it too and much more than we ever did!" Apologists cite people like Stalin and Hitler whom they say murdered millions and did so because atheism caused them to do so.

How do atheists respond to the charge that atheism leads to genocide and other horrors?

I can honestly say that although I'm an atheist, I have no desire at all to murder anyone. I don't see how it logically follows that since there are no gods, then I should hurt anybody. Any person who does desire to hurt people thinking that doing so results from her atheism is not only evil but very illogical.

But not everybody feels the way I do, of course. It's possible that some people do  need the threat of divine retribution to keep them in line. Maybe that's what apologists are telling us: they need the threat of divine punishment to prevent them from hurting people. Simply treating people well to maintain social harmony is not enough for them, and they project this feeling onto other people.

In any case, I'm not an atheist because of the moral implications of not believing in any gods. I'm an atheist because I cannot buy the claim that gods exist. So even if it was true that atheism leads to various evils, I don't see how I can be convinced that any gods exist.

Christians are responsible for most of the violence in the world. Historically, they couldn't even get along with each other. Catholics and Protestants killed and oppressed one another, depending on who was in power at the time. If the threat of Hell really did keep people from doing evil, why is it almost everyone in prison are Christian? It seems to me to have the opposite affect. Countries that are the most secular have the lowest violent crime rates. Today, Christians continue to oppress people. Unable to keep their religious beliefs restricted to their private lives, they insist on using the government to force their beliefs on everyone else.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline _Xenu_

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2019, 12:56:45 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Atheism isn't an ideology, its an absence of an ideology. Hitler and Starlin had there own political ideology and world views that lead to the wars and deaths they created.


I don't know why so many people think Hitler was an atheist. Stalin was, but he was also a communist.
Click this link once a day to feed shelter animals. Its free.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2019, 01:26:55 PM »
A stray thought.  Since everyone knows that the US is a Christian nation (conservatives do insist!), and we all know that christianity is a peace loving religion, why is it that the US has been involved in close to 120 armed conflicts in it's roughly 240 years of existence?  We have been at war (or armed conflict) for 222 of those years.  Maybe christians  did not invent Newspeak, but they have always been masters of it.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2019, 01:29:11 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hitler was a christian.

Technically yes.  Practically no ... he was a Wagnerian pagan.  It is like saying, because his mother was of Jewish descent, that he was a Jew.  And that the Holocaust was a Jewish false flag.  Hitler, by John Toland, covers this in detail, what we can know what he as actually like, not as we "narrative" him.  If he hadn't been criminally insane, he might have been the greatest German leader of all time.  But he was the man for his time, to lead a Germany that had gone off its rocker.  In the Garden of Beasts, by Erik Larson (who has written more than one book on psycho killers) covers the culture of early Third Reich.  There are so many details that people ignore, namely that Hitler had two nephews, and one of them died as a German soldier on the Russian Front, and the other lived, as a pharmacist mate, in the US Navy, in WW II.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 01:49:37 PM by Baruch »
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2019, 01:33:08 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As many of you should know, many Christian apologists respond to charges made by atheists accusing Christians of belonging to a violent religion by saying: "You atheists do it too and much more than we ever did!" Apologists cite people like Stalin and Hitler whom they say murdered millions and did so because atheism caused them to do so.

How do atheists respond to the charge that atheism leads to genocide and other horrors?

I can honestly say that although I'm an atheist, I have no desire at all to murder anyone. I don't see how it logically follows that since there are no gods, then I should hurt anybody. Any person who does desire to hurt people thinking that doing so results from her atheism is not only evil but very illogical.

But not everybody feels the way I do, of course. It's possible that some people do  need the threat of divine retribution to keep them in line. Maybe that's what apologists are telling us: they need the threat of divine punishment to prevent them from hurting people. Simply treating people well to maintain social harmony is not enough for them, and they project this feeling onto other people.

In any case, I'm not an atheist because of the moral implications of not believing in any gods. I'm an atheist because I cannot buy the claim that gods exist. So even if it was true that atheism leads to various evils, I don't see how I can be convinced that any gods exist.

Having an empirical or rational problem with the "deity" concept is reasonable.  There is no divine retribution, and I say that as a theist.  The idea that you can commit genocide now, and maybe (except for Jesus' covering sin) pay for it eventually, is a silly idea.  If there were divine justice (as mocked even in pagan times) ... Zeus would fry your ass from out of the sky every time you farted the wrong way, and would be right to do so (since humans are the most annoying species ever).  Further comments are applied further down, that apply to your other points.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2019, 01:37:34 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Atheism isn't an ideology, its an absence of an ideology. Hitler and Starlin had there own political ideology and world views that lead to the wars and deaths they created.

Correct.  Stalin and Hitler represented different competing forms of socialism.  Socialism in its extreme form, considers all individual to be expendable, and usually elevates the State to absolute power.  This, like all extremes is self contradictory.  A State that negates all individuals is a set without members.  Inhumanism is an outgrowth of tribal criminality.  Hitler and Stalin merely modernized and put on a different basis (Volk vs Class) the same inhumanity we see with Mongol conquest.  Corrupt religion was promoted to Hitler (as a backstop, he actually wasn't ready to impose Wagnerian paganism).  Stalin temporarily eliminated religion as a power base competitive with the State, and therefor intolerable.  Even Stalin had to allow private Russian Orthodox worship (but a castrated Church organization, much like China is running now) so as the Russian people not entirely despair under the very effective genocide by the Germans.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2019, 01:38:33 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
He was raised Catholic, but after looking into it, it seems more likely that he was an atheist. He really did not like the church, although he attempted to manipulate the church to his advantage.

Hitler may have been an atheist, but if he was an atheist, for him it would be very uncomfortably close to communism, an ideology he hated. Hitler denounced Bolshevism as "godless," and he would not have wanted people to know that he shared the communist point of view!

Now I agree that Hitler was no fan of the Christian church, but many Christians criticize Christianity. So his dislike for Christianity does not make him an atheist.

And yes, he manipulated the church. It was not a major effort for him to do so considering that Christianity has been anti-Jewish since its inception.

Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2019, 01:38:58 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's the way I see this issue. Yes, Stalin was an atheist, but he had a mustache too. I can just as easily claim that his mustache caused him to kill as his atheism may have!

Beware of sentient mustaches ... it was an alien attached to his face, like in Alien ;-)  I will never have a mustache as grand as his!  But then I don't allow aliens to parasitize me.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Is atheism responsible for war and genocide?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2019, 01:44:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hitler may have been an atheist, but if he was an atheist, for him it would be very uncomfortably close to communism, an ideology he hated. Hitler denounced Bolshevism as "godless," and he would not have wanted people to know that he shared the communist point of view!

Now I agree that Hitler was no fan of the Christian church, but many Christians criticize Christianity. So his dislike for Christianity does not make him an atheist.

And yes, he manipulated the church. It was not a major effort for him to do so considering that Christianity has been anti-Jewish since its inception.

The book, Constantine's Sword, covers the general Christian and specifically German guilt regarding genocide in general, and against Jews in particular.  These things in history, are the result of countless over preceding events.  They can't be analyzed, no more than your genetics, as something that happened out of nowhere, in just one generation ;-)

The whole degeneracy of society over the last 500 years, and the miserable state of society in the prior 5000 years, are well covered in honest history.  It was unexpected that a people as civilized as Italy, Japan and Germany could behave badly.  It was expected that barbarians like Russia and China were not to be trusted.  That is the problem with dominant narrative, and group think.

Humans today, the world over, continue to be just as blinkered regarding policy now as they were in the 30s.  Just about the time a person becomes wise with experience, they die.  And the whole mess starts over again with a clueless generation.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 01:53:19 PM by Baruch »
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk