Author Topic: How many GODS do you have?  (Read 4801 times)

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #360 on: June 11, 2019, 05:49:16 PM »
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Oh, well if you know everything then I suppose you also know where our consciousness come from.
Oh, come off it. It doesn't "come from" anywhere. It's a process; it started. You can control and mess with it with drugs. If you damage the brain, you damage the consciousness. And there is nowhere it "goes" when you die. It just stops.

This is what neuroscience tells us. There's nothing woo about it. Consciousness isn't a material thing because it isn't a thing at all. It isn't an immaterial, woo thing again because it isn't a thing at all. It's a category error to classify it as a thing that "comes from" somewhere upon birth and then "goes" somewhere upon death, because it's what the brain does, and when the brain stops doing what it's doing, consciousness ends as surely as your material life does.

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Everybody is looking for peace of mind and permanent happiness.
The error is thinking that there's only one way to find either, or either is possible.

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Now considering that within this FINITE universe there is absolutely nothing permanent the permanent must be elsewhere right,
Non sequitor. The permanent may be nonexistent and/or unachievable by any means available to us.

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so it doesn't really matter if right now your objectives are different from mine because sooner or later you too will understand where this ROME is located.  :wink:
Your analogy is flawed. Unlike the afterlife, we know that Rome is a real place. People have been there and back. There is no such assurance from the afterlife. Death looks to every means available to us to be the end and oblivion, with nothing in the hereafter for us, and as such this life is the only life we get. I'm not going to squander my only assured life for empty promises of the hereafter.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #361 on: June 11, 2019, 09:59:27 PM »
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More daydream aitm?

Wrong again because not only I never said that there should only be the subconscious but my previous post clearly indicate that I believe in a balance among physical-material and the various strata of the mind.

Your continuous insistence that I reject the material side is but a callous way to denigrate or perhaps you can't even read my posts properly which would be as bad as to denigrate.
'

I had a few Supervisors who created facts from nothing and justified it saying they just knew they were right, so making up facts to support the ideas was justified.  We analysts referred to them as "rectal extractions".  And to be quite honest (here and then) we always let our fellow analysts in the other offices which "facts" were true and which were not.  The Supervisors never quite understood how the other offices knew which facts to refute.  Sometimes there were several offices involved which made it a bit circular.

The Fellowship Of The Ring... 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #362 on: June 12, 2019, 03:11:38 AM »
So, scarred for life then?  Can you get a job as a pirate?
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #363 on: June 12, 2019, 06:21:49 AM »
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So, scarred for life then?  Can you get a job as a pirate?

Nah, I became a Democrat for lack of a better party.  The Supervisors were all Republicans,  and since they all lied so casually, I didn't want to be one of them.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #364 on: June 12, 2019, 11:16:15 AM »
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'

I had a few Supervisors who created facts from nothing and justified it saying they just knew they were right, so making up facts to support the ideas was justified.  We analysts referred to them as "rectal extractions".  And to be quite honest (here and then) we always let our fellow analysts in the other offices which "facts" were true and which were not.  The Supervisors never quite understood how the other offices knew which facts to refute.  Sometimes there were several offices involved which made it a bit circular.

The Fellowship Of The Ring...


Oh, well if you like to talk about FACTS then I mention a small list of atheists facts.

1) When we die is all over.
2) The consciousness is a product of the brain.
3) We never lived before and we will never live again.
4) There is no need for a God to create or run the universe.
5) Religion and spirituality is the same thing.
6) Jesus never existed.
7) NDEs are all hallucinations and lies.
8) The progress of the consciousness has nothing to do with evolution.
9) Physical science is the real McCoy.
10) The power of the mind is not important in breaking slabs of concrete.

Shell I continue CB?








When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling. Live your life so that when you die, you’re the one smiling and everyone around you is crying. Tulsi Das

Offline Baruch

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #365 on: June 12, 2019, 11:35:56 AM »
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Nah, I became a Democrat for lack of a better party.  The Supervisors were all Republicans,  and since they all lied so casually, I didn't want to be one of them.

Management requires deception.  Only technicians can pretend that honesty and process are all that are required.

Materialists are narrow in their perception of what could be real.  The world is material, but much more.  I don't agree with progress, with teleology, with purposeful evolution.  In that way I disagree with Arik.  There are random changes only.  Except with entropy, it is one step forward and two steps back.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 11:39:04 AM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #366 on: June 12, 2019, 11:47:51 AM »
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Oh, come off it. It doesn't "come from" anywhere. It's a process; it started. You can control and mess with it with drugs. If you damage the brain, you damage the consciousness. And there is nowhere it "goes" when you die. It just stops.


So your guessing suppose to be taken as facts?
Are you serious Haku?

The only thing that make sense in your post is that drugs damage the consciousness but all the rest is pure and simple guess which has zero value.



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This is what neuroscience tells us.

Some people that study neuroscience are guessing while other do not speculate because so far there is zero evidence to conclude anything however NDEs are leaving no doubt that life is behind destruction.



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There's nothing woo about it. Consciousness isn't a material thing because it isn't a thing at all. It isn't an immaterial, woo thing again because it isn't a thing at all.


Even a zombie need a bit of consciousness to move around so this consciousness must be something.
No consciousness no life Haku.
As simple as this.



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It's a category error to classify it as a thing that "comes from" somewhere upon birth and then "goes" somewhere upon death, because it's what the brain does, and when the brain stops doing what it's doing, consciousness ends as surely as your material life does.


Sorry Haku but that is a load of garbage.

If it is true that when the brain stop also the consciousness stop then we can say that when the vehicle is dead also the driver die.

Do you realize the nonsense you are talking?



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The error is thinking that there's only one way to find either, or either is possible.
Non sequitor. The permanent may be nonexistent and/or unachievable by any means available to us.
Your analogy is flawed. Unlike the afterlife, we know that Rome is a real place. People have been there and back. There is no such assurance from the afterlife. Death looks to every means available to us to be the end and oblivion, with nothing in the hereafter for us, and as such this life is the only life we get. I'm not going to squander my only assured life for empty promises of the hereafter.



It is bizarre how atheists always say that they do not believe in magic but eh, is not magic to believe that we never build the consciousness that we got?
Do you really believe that you are lucky to have the consciousness that you have?
If atheists believe in science then why they believe in magic?
Since when science say that something come from nothing?
Who suppose to have build the consciousness that you got other than you?

Get real brother and don't waste your time chasing illusions.






When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling. Live your life so that when you die, you’re the one smiling and everyone around you is crying. Tulsi Das

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #367 on: June 12, 2019, 11:56:21 AM »
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Oh, well if you like to talk about FACTS then I mention a small list of atheists facts.

1) When we die is all over.
2) The consciousness is a product of the brain.
3) We never lived before and we will never live again.
4) There is no need for a God to create or run the universe.
5) Religion and spirituality is the same thing.
6) Jesus never existed.
7) NDEs are all hallucinations and lies.
8) The progress of the consciousness has nothing to do with evolution.
9) Physical science is the real McCoy.
10) The power of the mind is not important in breaking slabs of concrete.

Shell I continue CB?
Not CB, but will comment anyway.  Decent list, but not quite right. 
#5--No, not for me.  Religion always has a hierarchy which leads to destruction and evil.  Spiritually is a personal thing and is not always unproductive for either the person or society.  For example, I have a good friend who meditates daily and says he is searching and getting in touch with his 'higher' being.  He claims his spirituality makes him a better person and I don't argue with that. 
#7 NDE's are not lies, even if they are hallucinations. Optical illusions are not lies but just how our brain interprets what it 'sees'.
#8--Since our consciousness is a function or our brain, as our brain changes (and evolves), our consciousness will as well.

The rest I agree with.  And please continue if you wish.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline aitm

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #368 on: June 12, 2019, 12:14:27 PM »
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Oh, well if you like to talk about FACTS then I mention a small list of atheists facts.

1) When we die is all over.
2) The consciousness is a product of the brain.
3) We never lived before and we will never live again.
4) There is no need for a God to create or run the universe.
5) Religion and spirituality is the same thing.
6) Jesus never existed.
7) NDEs are all hallucinations and lies.
8) The progress of the consciousness has nothing to do with evolution.
9) Physical science is the real McCoy.
10) The power of the mind is not important in breaking slabs of concrete.


Well, finally posting something that is not bullshit. I wouldn't say we consider all of the facts..but until we get something from a reputable source telling us otherwise with some backup.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #369 on: June 12, 2019, 04:37:12 PM »
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Well, finally posting something that is not bullshit. I wouldn't say we consider all of the facts..but until we get something from a reputable source telling us otherwise with some backup.

Alas, there are no reputable sources ... push come to shove.  Human beings are deplorables.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #370 on: June 12, 2019, 11:59:41 PM »
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So your guessing suppose to be taken as facts?
Are you serious Haku?

The only thing that make sense in your post is that drugs damage the consciousness but all the rest is pure and simple guess which has zero value.
Bullshit. This isn't just "my guess." This is the body of neuroscience. Specific aspects of consciousness are indeed linked to particular areas of the brain, for instance. Damage your Brocha's area, you will not be able to form or even comprehend sentences, and at best pick out words and try to deduce their meaning; damage your Wernicke's area, and you will start babbling gramatical nonsense. Split the brain down the corpus colosum and you will have two distinct personalities in one body β€” one "consciousness" has become two, and it's certainly not a de neuvo consciousness either. There is no conservation of consciousness. It shows every indication that it is something that the brain does.

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Some people that study neuroscience are guessing while other do not speculate because so far there is zero evidence to conclude anything however NDEs are leaving no doubt that life is behind destruction.
NDE do not demonstrate that they are anything other than the brain's attempt to reconstruct what was happening after the fact. We've tested NDE, and they fail to show that they are anything supernatural. Yes, these patients describe what they think might have happened during their revival, but they all utterly fail to notice the rather incongruitous and obvious playing card laid atop a shelf in plain view of a supposed soul.

It's like, everyone's seen TV dramas of a patient being revived on an operating table, and everyone expects to be floating above the scene in their NDE, and that's what they experience, but they don't expect to see playing cards in emergency rooms, and so they don't experience it. Funny thing if NDE's are actually out-of-bodies, huh?

While consciousness in neuroscience is still being studied, that does not mean that we can't say anything about it. We have plenty to say, and the notion that it is a woo thing that "comes from" somewhere and "goes" somewhere is completely unfounded and shows every indication that it is wrong. Your notion that "neuroscience is guessing" on the broad category of what consciousness is (thing vs process) is simply wrong.

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Even a zombie need a bit of consciousness to move around so this consciousness must be something.
No consciousness no life Haku.
As simple as this.
First off, zombies are fiction. Fiiictiooon. They don't exist the way you think of them. At best, real zombies are still fully alive but brain-damaged people. I have no need to explain what is not evident.
And then there's the fact that there are the brain-dead. People with silent brain matter and well-correlated to having no detectable consciousness, yet are still alive in every other sense. If you can call a meat vegetable "alive." Their organs may even be donated to other people who need them, and will live perfectly happily in them but for immune system rejection issues.

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Sorry Haku but that is a load of garbage.
You calling something garbage does not make it so.

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If it is true that when the brain stop also the consciousness stop then we can say that when the vehicle is dead also the driver die.
Bad analogies are still bad. There is no driver, no homunculus in the brain. Nobody has demonstrated that a consciousness can exist apart from a functioning brain. No, NDE are not examples of this. Again, we've tested them and they show no signs of them being other than reconstructions after the fact. It is a mere experience, not a reality.

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Do you realize the nonsense you are talking?
[Irony meter exploded.]

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It is bizarre how atheists always say that they do not believe in magic but eh, is not magic to believe that we never build the consciousness that we got?
Do you really believe that you are lucky to have the consciousness that you have?
If atheists believe in science then why they believe in magic?
Since when science say that something come from nothing?
Who suppose to have build the consciousness that you got other than you?
You have not demonstrated that anything we believe is "magic." Believing that some aspect of yourself exists beyond the expiration of your body, with no evidence to indicate that such a thing exists, and that it has properties that is seen in no other entity in this universe (you think that the consciousness is the only permanent thing in this universe), is to you less magical than believing that such things are horse-hooey. Sorry, your woo is still, at the end, woo.

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Get real brother and don't waste your time chasing illusions.
Gaslighting, pure and simple. Dude, this reality right here that I'm sitting in is the one I have to deal with. You promise me that your woo is more important than the reality that I can readily verify. You promise me that I will achieve peace of mind and permanent happiness with your woo. And if you're wrong and all I get is an empty box... I have no course for redress. In any other context, such a promise would be rightly regarded as a con, so I'm calling it as I see it.

If there is an afterlife, then its gravy on an already fulfilling life. If there isn't, then I still have my fulfilling life. Either way, I still come out ahead of you.
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Offline Hydra009

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #371 on: June 13, 2019, 12:33:37 AM »
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1) When we die is all over.
2) The consciousness is a product of the brain.
3) We never lived before and we will never live again.
4) There is no need for a God to create or run the universe.
Did you mean to be sarcastic or did you actually express a fairly ground worldview without duress or external aid?

Offline Baruch

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #372 on: June 13, 2019, 02:18:26 AM »
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Did you mean to be sarcastic or did you actually express a fairly ground worldview without duress or external aid?

Yes/no, he was sarcastic, but some Eastern beliefs are non-theistic.  I don't think Arik is a theist.  He is a non-theistic yogi.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #373 on: June 13, 2019, 08:37:51 AM »
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Yes/no, he was sarcastic, but some Eastern beliefs are non-theistic.  I don't think Arik is a theist.  He is a non-theistic yogi.
Actually, Airk is a Yogi Bear and coming to us straight from Jellystone Park.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: How many GODS do you have?
« Reply #374 on: June 13, 2019, 09:39:52 AM »
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Actually, Airk is a Yogi Bear and coming to us straight from Jellystone Park.

Shh!  BooBoo the Ranger is coming!
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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