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How many GODS do you have?

Started by Arik, May 08, 2019, 08:42:34 AM

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Baruch

I mostly agree.  But regarding views of the past, by ancients ... they had this "fate" and "curse" thing going.  So the future wasn't a nice thing.  I was providing a context, wasn't saying the past caused the present (in their view), that is in fact the modern view.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on June 15, 2019, 09:19:20 AM
I mostly agree.  But regarding views of the past, by ancients ... they had this "fate" and "curse" thing going.  So the future wasn't a nice thing.  I was providing a context, wasn't saying the past caused the present (in their view), that is in fact the modern view.

You didn't answer a single thing in my post. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Arik

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 14, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
Mere assertion. Your stating that consciousness is not part of the nervous system does not make it true.
I see nowhere where Wikipedia claims consciousness is not part of the nervous system.



Uh, uh, now is getting a bit too long.
If I can't finish to reply to all question tonight it will be tomorrow.

But now let me answer the first question.
The answer is very very simple.
The nervous system is made of matter but the consciousness is an abstract entity.
Normal people do not need much time to understand this simple point so obviously the two need two separate study to understand this point that is why neuroscience that study the nervous system is not able to understand something that is abstract in nature.
An engineer that build the vehicle obviously is not interested in understanding much about a driver that is why you fail once again.


QuoteYou really are a dumbass, aren't you? It's called a NEAR DEATH experience because you experience after being near death and come back from the brink. At no point are you actually dead. Even if you are declared dead, that doesn't make you actually dead, because many cells remain alive hours after clinical death.

It's called a NEAR death experience because the people who experience aren't actually dead!



Is not by calling me with names that you will be able to score any points.
If you want to score any point in front of an impartial jury you will have to come up with something that make sense which is something that so far you have failed to do.

And now to answer your question.
Death to me and to all who had a real NDE is when the consciousness leave the body regardless whether the nerve cells are not dead yet. According to medical science however a person is dead when the heart stop and doesn't send any more blood-oxygen into the brain.
To some other is when the brain cells are all dead.
To me the word NDE is not correct.
The one who invented the word should have call it TDE (temporary death experience) but that is not a big deal anyway.
In most cases the brain cells die within about 3 minutes after the blood-oxygen stop flowing but in some rare cases they last up to ten minutes so after that time the death is real death.
The funny thing Haku is that most of the real NDEs last well over 10 minutes which means that the body and the brain cells are  totally lifeless that is why all your excuses to prove that the person is not real dead are all a bunch of nonsense.
FAIL AGAIN HAKU.



QuoteMaybe you should ponder this before you open your big trap.
Nonsense. All God is doing is playing games by being this fucking evasive. People experiencing NDEs never give testimony out of line from what they expect to find in such experiences. When tested, they never are able to gain any genuinely unexplained knowledge that would prove the are actually sensing something beyond the norm, like those hidden playing cards. Should they have been reliably been seeing those playing cards, even if God has to point out that the playing card is important and they should memorize it, then that would be interesting and something to talk about. But they don't. All we get is pap testimony of things beyond that could just as easily be imagination.



Fail again Haku.


There are several cases in which these people who had a real NDE saw what was happening in the hospital while they were out their bodies.
In one case the person saw a nurse that drop a baby which fracture some bones.
The nurse in fear of getting in trouble did not report the incident.
Once the person who had this NDE came back into his body he reported what happen to the doctors that could find the baby and fix the fracture.
In many other cases the NDE person describe what happen in the casualty room while his body was dead.
Doctors and nurses could not believe how a suppose dead person could see and describe all this.

Evidence is there Haku but of course this evidence would shred in pieces all atheists beliefs that is why atheists cling to the idea that NDEs are all rubbish.



QuoteNDEs have never shown themselves to be a reliable source of verifiable knowledge, and until they are, I don't see why anyone would or should trust them any more than any other story that people tell.

Also, a God that is unwilling to be verified by any means obviously values gullibility above critical thinking, and that is a God I cannot respect.
Mere repetition does not make it any more true than the first time you said it.



Free will is there for all to be free to believe or not believe.
Why God would give the free will and then open the eyes of those who are not genuinely interested in Him?



QuoteWe even have a field of neuroscience dedicated to the study of the link between consciousness and neurology, cognitive neuroscience.


Sure Haku.

We also have the engineer that create the vehicle that try to study how the drivers would react to the vehicle but how far do you think that study would go considering that the engineer is manly expert in building the vehicle?

Ponder again Haku.



Quote
Cognitive neuroscience is the scientific field that is concerned with the study of the biological processes and aspects that underlie cognition,[1] with a specific focus on the neural connections in the brain which are involved in mental processes. It addresses the questions of how cognitive activities are affected or controlled by neural circuits in the brain. Cognitive neuroscience is a branch of both neuroscience and psychology, overlapping with disciplines such as behavioral neuroscience, cognitive psychology, physiological psychology and affective neuroscience.[2] Cognitive neuroscience relies upon theories in cognitive science coupled with evidence from neurobiology, and computational modeling.[2]

QuoteSo, this notion that cognition (including consciousness) is "NOT part of neuroscience," is just you speaking out of your ass again.
Yeah, yeah. Calling that "woo" does not make it so.
Prove it, then. Prove that you are not a philosophical zombie, who is so detailed that it even "thinks" (in whatever facsimile of thinking it's able to perform) that it is conscious. Prove that people are actual conscious beings instead of intricately programmed facsimiles that have been given false experiences and thoughts and the mere illusion of consciousness. Prove that you have actual consciousness instead of the convincing illusion of it, and you might be getting somewhere. Otherwise, you're up the creek.

And keep in mind, people are quite easily fooled into believing that bots on the internet are real people, at least for a while, and those things are quite simple in their action.
And yet they never seem to see those playing cards, do they? God never gives them the hint that maybe they should, as part of that "clear, sharp and remembered even after years and years" experiences, be remembering the card and its suit and value, to give some indication... ANY indication... that they're actually remembering a real experience and not just reconstructing one.


Just answered that point. (see above)



More in the next post
When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling. Live your life so that when you die, you’re the one smiling and everyone around you is crying. Tulsi Das

Cavebear

Quote from: Arik on June 15, 2019, 10:07:35 AM

More in the next post

Oh, I can't wait.  Please stay up and entertain me more...  Please?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Arik

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 14, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
QuoteAnd keep in mind, people are quite easily fooled into believing that bots on the internet are real people, at least for a while, and those things are quite simple in their action.
And yet they never seem to see those playing cards, do they? God never gives them the hint that maybe they should, as part of that "clear, sharp and remembered even after years and years" experiences, be remembering the card and its suit and value, to give some indication... ANY indication... that they're actually remembering a real experience and not just reconstructing one.

And before you point out the clearness and sharpness again, you seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that a reconstructed memory is shoddy and distorted. Not so. Each and every memory you recall is, at that moment, reconstructed from whatever pieces the brain pulls together. We know this because not only do we have brain scans that show this in action, we know that "clear memories" can be filled with inaccuracies no matter how clear and sharp they seem, because if you compare such a recalled memory over time, it changes! Especially if the memory is recalled often. What happened to these "experience that are clear, sharp and remembered years later," Arik? If the story changes, then at most one of the different versions is accurate, if any of them.

Again, until NDEs are validated as a source of real knowledge, I don't see why anyone should take them seriously. A God that is playing games with sending cryptic messages via ALMOST dead people taking about the hereafter (that they never experienced) brought back from the brink instead of first confirming that such a channel can be trusted is a God OBVIOUSLY uninterested in our welfare.

Okay:



Who told you that God suppose to give hints or experiences only to dead people under the NDEs?
Meditation is one of the best way to experience God and I am fully aware of that but there are many other ways to experience God.
Unfortunately most materialists think that if something is true they should be able to experience it in a material-physical way.
These people don't get the fact that not everything come under the physical-material dimension.



QuoteARIK: 1) When we die is all over.

Evidence: The glaring lack of verifiable evidence that the above is anything but this case, even from a God that SHOULD know what kind of evidence would convince us. When there's a lack of evidence in exactly the places where they should be expected, that is evidence against.


Fail again Haku.
There is evidence that the high degree of consciousness is due to a lot of hard work through the evolution process.
Nothing pop up as per magic.
Only fools believe in magic that is why we lived before in order to climb the ladder of evolution which again means that we lived before and we will live again until we reach the very top of evolution.



QuoteARIK: 2) The consciousness is a product of the brain.

Evidence: The intimate relation between damage to the brain and damage to the consciousness. Again, a consciousness that is supposedly permanent should be able to weather such damage without consequence, but when we study brain damaged people, these faculties betray every sign of being completely gone instead of simply having no outlet. When we temporarily silence these regions with transcranial stimulation, patients describe their experience as such. For temporary aphasics (no language), they describe themselves after the fact that during the period of time they were simply unable to comprehend words even in their thoughts.



That is very very silly of you Haku.

Just imagine when people are involved in a vehicle incident.
Obviously the driver get hurt so his consciousness can not work properly as before but this doesn't mean that the driver is part and parcel of the car.





QuoteARIK: 3) We never lived before and we will never live again.

Obvious deduction from 1 and 2, with the caveat that this holds as long as the universe does not satisfy the conditions of Poincare's recursion theorem.



Meaningless answer.



QuoteARIK: 4) There is no need for a God to create or run the universe.

Evidence: The complete inability for theists to explain why God can exist in the first place if the universe needs a God to create it. The attempts all boil down to special pleading. If God may exist without a cause, there is no real compelling reason why a unverse couldn't exist without a cause as well. Occam's razor slices off the unnecessary premise (God).



The universe is also a body and a body need to be fed all the time.

The entropy theory go against this principle and other theories are not applicable so obviously someone is there all the time to feed this universe with energy and whatever is needed to be alive and well.



QuoteARIK: 5) Religion and spirituality is the same thing.

CORRECTION: Not a position held by us. I just consider them equally bogus on account that they rely on exactly the same types of evidence for brodly similar claims.



Actually I saw several times in different forums that atheists think that both of them are the same thing when in reality the difference is astronomic.
In most cases the only thing that yoga share with religions is that God is real.






When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling. Live your life so that when you die, you’re the one smiling and everyone around you is crying. Tulsi Das

Arik

Quote from: Cavebear on June 15, 2019, 10:16:58 AM
Oh, I can't wait.  Please stay up and entertain me more...  Please?


Don't say that again or I will charge you for reading my posts eh!  :cheesy:
When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling. Live your life so that when you die, you’re the one smiling and everyone around you is crying. Tulsi Das

Cavebear

Quote from: Arik on June 15, 2019, 10:52:59 AM

Don't say that again or I will charge you for reading my posts eh!  :cheesy:

A penny per 1,000 words would be an overcharge. 

Look, to my mind, you are simply one more in a long line of crazed theists who come and go here, and I really don't care a tinker's dam about you and your opinions.  I have little use or respect for for theists.  Personally, I consider you all to be a blot on the page.

Have a nice day...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Arik

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 14, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
ARIK: 6) Jesus never existed.

If he wasn't a mangod, it wouldn't matter one whit if he existed or not â€" the feats attributed to him are obvious fairy tales and cannot be verified, and again, God would know exactly what kind of evidence it would need to really rigiourously verify such claims. I'm on the side that Jesus is a historicized mythical figure, but that's another story.



Usually the history is mainly written by the winner and Jesus did not fight for the winner so obviously not much evidence is there for Jesus.
But again the free will make sure that people shell not be given easy evidence that God exist.



QuoteARIK: 7) NDEs are all hallucinations and lies.

CORRECTION: Not necessarily. They're experiences, but not necessarily of the things that they think they are.

Evidence: Again, not one of these NDE people caught on that there was a playing card on those top shelves, and a God didn't see fit to point out the card to those people and say, "See that playing card? Memorize it! It'll be important later!" Again, it looks exactly like people are reconstructing memories after the fact, rather than a genuine real phenomenon. Reconstruction of memories does not require any knowledge of things we don't know about; supernatural woo does. Occam's razor deletes the woo in favor of reconstruction.



I already answer this question in previous posts.
Read them.

And if you want to know better about the NDEs go in this site.


https://www.nderf.org/Archives/exceptional.html



QuoteARIK: 8) The progress of the consciousness has nothing to do with evolution.

We don't call the change of a consciousness with time "evolution." People learn, think, imagine, and grow. But it's not an evolution as you think of it.



Evolution of the consciousness is all about getting more awareness of who you are and your relationship with the whole and this evolution of the consciousness is billion more important that the physical evolution.



QuoteARIK: 9) Physical science is the real McCoy.

Evidence: All theories of woo fall flat on their face. They don't work. Physical science, grounded completely in materialistic thinking, works a charm. This is exactly the distribution of success and failure that you expect if physical science is all there is.



Physical science is only good for physical survival but man is after a lot more than that and this is something that you will find out when you will get tired of getting nowhere by relying on this material-physical dimension.



QuoteARIK: 10) The power of the mind is not important in breaking slabs of concrete.

Evidence: All martial artists who are able to break concrete are able to do so after conditioning their bodies, not spindly little gurus who eschew their bodies. There's a mental component, as one's natural inclination is to not bash their hands, feet, and head against hard rock-like substances, but discipline is as far as it goes. Furthermore, every mechanical advantage is given to the martial artist. And finally, actual calculations indicate that breaking the blocks of concrete actually seen broken is well within the capability of the human body if its well-trained. This is exactly what we would expect to see if the breaking of concrete is a physical phenomenon, rather than a mental one.
I do belive in myself, but I don't believe you. You have said nothing in your drivel that has the ring of truth to it. I believe in my ability to understand and grasp even a little bit how the world actually works, and I've worked to gain the knowledge necessary to understand it, and I have been rewarded with a less shallow than average understanding. You see humans breaking concrete and think, "WOW! That's obviously impossible physically for a human, so it MUST be mental powers!" whereas I think, "Huh, that's cool, and seems to be impossible! But is that really beyond human capability? Let's see... WOW! Human bodies are more capable than I first thought!"

In short, I see in you nothing more than nonsense masquerading as knowledge. Find a way to VERIFY anything you say with a means equal to your claims, and you might have a case. Until then, it's just a snake-oil salesman trying to sell me cure-all.



If you think that mental power is not necessary then let us go a bit further and see if you can poke in your flesh metal hooks without feeling any pain.

Do you think you can do that?  :wink:



When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling. Live your life so that when you die, you’re the one smiling and everyone around you is crying. Tulsi Das

Cavebear

Quote from: Arik on June 15, 2019, 11:20:24 AM

If you think that mental power is not necessary then let us go a bit further and see if you can poke in your flesh metal hooks without feeling any pain.

Do you think you can do that?  :wink:

Crazy people can do things like that.

But sometimes rational people can do that too.  My grampa took us fishing at a bridge and I noticed he seemed to be struggling with something.  I went over to check and he had a hook in his thumb.  He had been standing there trying to wiggle the barbed hook out of his thumb so as not to disturb our fishing.  I tried to tell him to stop doing that.

Dad finally noticed and got us all on the way to an ER.  I told him what had to happen.  The barbed hook would have to be pushed though and the barb cut off so the remainder could be slid back out.  It was only logical solution.

Grampa and Dad said they wouldn't do THAT!  It was too brutal.

But that was exactly what the ER guys did after a shot in his thumb.

No one ever thinks I am right about stuff like that but I always am.  It's EXTREMELY annoying sometimes. 

In your case Arik, I think I can confidently say that some people like you can do hooks, cruxifictions, etc just by sheer will.  Because you are obsessed.  Normal people aren't. 

What amazes me is that you think it proves something.  It does, but probably not what you think.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

aitm

Quote from: Arik on June 14, 2019, 09:32:17 AM
Would you be so kind to bring some evidence about them.

Son, you have been responded to by people who have letters behind their names...people who have far more knowledge of science than I and most certainly you, and you just wave your hand as if they know nothing...meaning in short you are simply a troll and a liar or simply a copy pasta idiot. In either case, I...and many of those who could easily boast academic credentials but don't need to in their own home... have grown tired of you. We have given you your due...given you a place to stand and vomit....given you time to consider....given you time..period.  Your time is up. We have grown tired of your wallowing in nonsense. So I give you your last couple hours. I am off to quaff a few with some friends and loved ones.....using my  delightful material earning to do so. When I come back...unless someone beats me to it. I think it is time for you to move on. Have a the less than happy life you so yearn for. I, on the other hand, knowing what is and what has been supposed, choose that what is and will enjoy what it is. Good bye.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Baruch

Worshipper of idols?  Sounds like paganism to me.  Magic letters?  Sounds like Salem Mass.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Arik on June 15, 2019, 10:07:35 AM
The nervous system is made of matter but the consciousness is an abstract entity.
You are merely ASSERTING that consciousness is an entity at all, let alone an abstract one. Consciousness is a process, because a consciousness that does not engage in cognition is not a consciousness, but unconsciousness. By analogy, the running of a car cannot exist without a car, yet it is as much an "abstract entity" as consciousness.

Quote
Normal people do not need much time to understand this simple point so obviously the two need two separate study to understand this point that is why neuroscience that study the nervous system is not able to understand something that is abstract in nature.
Most people aren't very intelligent, and that's the difference. I've been telling you for about THREE POSTS now that I do not accept your assertion that consciousness is an abstract entity or thing. It doesn't matter how much you repeat that ASSERTION, until you get around to proving that consciousness IS an entity, I and neuroscience in general still have good reason to think that the consciousness is what the brain does. And what the brain does is absolutely the perview of neuroscience.

It doesn't matter if you say neurologists don't study consciousness. They absolutely do.

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An engineer that build the vehicle obviously is not interested in understanding much about a driver that is why you fail once again.
Once again, I do no submit to your ASSERTION that consciousness is like the driver of a brain car. If you've seen Bay's Transformers, think Barricade â€" the Decepticon police cruiser. The "driver" you see "operating" Barricade is not the driver, but a hologram projected by Barricade to help in its disguise. Barricade is moving himself.

Consciousness is similar. Consciousness is not in any way analogous to the driver of the car, but more analogous to Barricade's driver hologram: the "driver" appears to be in control, but it's actually the car in control of the "driver." The consciousness appears to be in control of the brain, but the brain is fully in control and projecting the illusion of a consciousness as a controlling entity.

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Is not by calling me with names that you will be able to score any points.
If you want to score any point in front of an impartial jury you will have to come up with something that make sense which is something that so far you have failed to do.
We are not in court. I'll call you whatever I want. Someone who cannot understand simple english has no right to tell me that anything I've said doesn't "make sense."

Quote
And now to answer your question.
Death to me and to all who had a real NDE is when the consciousness leave the body regardless whether the nerve cells are not dead yet.
I don't care about your definition. You cannot prove that your consciousness "went anywhere," any more than my consciousness "goes anywhere" when I dream of Narnia.

Quote
According to medical science however a person is dead when the heart stop and doesn't send any more blood-oxygen into the brain.
To some other is when the brain cells are all dead.
There is no "to some, to others" nonsense. They are different types of death that someone can go through. Clinical death (heart stopping) is more properly called cardiac arrest, and it is recoverable. There's a distinct correleation between the brain dying and the person never recovering consciousness.

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To me the word NDE is not correct.
Too bad. People who verifiably go through NDEs always have quite intact brains. People whose brains are verifiably destroyed, don't have any verifiable NDE experiences.

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In most cases the brain cells die within about 3 minutes after the blood-oxygen stop flowing but in some rare cases they last up to ten minutes so after that time the death is real death.
The funny thing Haku is that most of the real NDEs last well over 10 minutes which means that the body and the brain cells are  totally lifeless that is why all your excuses to prove that the person is not real dead are all a bunch of nonsense.
FAIL AGAIN HAKU.
No, YOU fail. When these people wake up and convey their experiences, are their brains silent and dead? No? Then their episode was obviously reversible. Remember that the ten minutes cited here is an empirical observation. It's the point where you start seeing progressive brain damage when you restore blood flow and revive the person. As the apoxia continues, the brain will deteriorate to the point where you can restore blood flow but the patient never exhibits brain function. THAT's brain death. If he's restored from apoxia and recovers some function, he's not brain dead, by definition.

So, you have not established that a brain is ever "totally lifeless." Dormant and in extremis? Yes. Dead? By definition, no.

Furthermore, even if you restore blood flow, it can take hours, even days, to regain consciousness. This is where you get NDEs lasting well over 10 minutes. Blood flow is restored, but the patient doesn't regain consciousness immediately like turning on a light. The brain is definitely working, albeit in a disorganized way, and only when that organizaion is restored is consciousness restored along with it.

So, no, you have not demonstrated that NDEs are anything other than what I say they are.

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There are several cases in which these people who had a real NDE saw what was happening in the hospital while they were out their bodies.
Again, mere assertion. These same people tend to have access to what happened during their episode by ordinary means. People talk. The hospital ER is not a controlled environment where you can FORCE people not to gab about the episode. In fact, talking to a comatose patient is encouraged not only under the theory that the best treatment for a disabled brain is stimulation, but also good therapy for friends and family.

This is definitely a channel by which a patient can assimilate information without woo, in addition to people gabbing after the patient has regained consciousness. The flow of information to the patient is not under any sort of control, and uncontrolled conditions make for poor data. Too poor to support an extraordinary claim like OOB experiences.

That's why you use the playing cards.

It's a piece of completely irrelevant information that is placed exactly where NDEs are reported to float above to give them the best chance of being seen if they were actually there. And, of course, they never seem to see it, even to wonder why the heck it's there. Not one of them wakes up to ask, "Incidently, can anyone tell me why there's a jack of spades up on that top shelf?"

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Evidence is there Haku but of course this evidence would shred in pieces all atheists beliefs that is why atheists cling to the idea that NDEs are all rubbish.
Again, poor controls make for poor data. The controls on these cases are exceedingly poor and highly anecdotal. That's why we performed the test. The test imposed controls on a particular piece of information that only an OOBer would have access to. Yet, they fail on this very simple test. Are NDEs so incurious that not one of them wonders why the heck there was a playing card on a shelf? Tosh.

Like every other form of paranormal, it fails under a simple test with modest controls. This is the track record of every other discarded hypothesis. I would be inconsistent to not dismiss this phenomenon that runs away from verification as I did every other.

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Free will is there for all to be free to believe or not believe.
Why God would give the free will and then open the eyes of those who are not genuinely interested in Him?
Stop appealing to preserving my pweschous fwee will. We mere humans try to pursuade each other all the time, in exactly the way we're doing with each other now. Yet nobody thinks that we're undermining each other's free will. To think that a God couldn't contain himself in this manner is simply ridiculous.

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We also have the engineer that create the vehicle that try to study how the drivers would react to the vehicle but how far do you think that study would go considering that the engineer is manly expert in building the vehicle?
You have yet to prove that consciousness is not under the perview of neuroscience; that it's not what the brain does, the same way Barricade presents the illusion of a car with a driver even though it's only the Decepticon.

Ponder that.



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Just answered that point. (see above)
You have not. You don't give ANY evidence at all that you have a genuine consciousness rather than a sham one. All you have done is asserted that you do. Sorry, a preprogrammed automaton can do that.

Quote from: Arik on June 15, 2019, 10:50:38 AM
Who told you that God suppose to give hints or experiences only to dead people under the NDEs?
Wouldn't God have an interest in using NDEs to try to prove both the supernatural and himself? Establishing that a channel of communication can be relied upon is step one of communication. A God that doesn't understand this... is dumb.

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Meditation is one of the best way to experience God
You have yet to prove that there is a God to experience.

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Unfortunately most materialists think that if something is true they should be able to experience it in a material-physical way.
These people don't get the fact that not everything come under the physical-material dimension.
A God should be perfectly capable of showing that there is something beyond the material to be considered in a complete wordview. So far, all the evidence has been found wanting. That's not our fault. A world with supernatural content that presents itself to every reliable means of verification as only material is indistinguishable from one that is only material, and a supernatural so unwilling to present itself to verification is also one that is irrelevant. Material concerns makes itself felt in every aspect in our lives. Immaterial ones, not so much.

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Fail again Haku.
There is evidence that the high degree of consciousness is due to a lot of hard work through the evolution process.
There is no evolutionary advantage to a consciousness that is permanent after death. It doesn't help the differential survival of an organism's genes. Evolution has no handle on making a consciousness permanet and able to survive death.

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That is very very silly of you Haku.

Just imagine when people are involved in a vehicle incident.
Obviously the driver get hurt so his consciousness can not work properly as before but this doesn't mean that the driver is part and parcel of the car.
Again, consider Barricade. Once more, you have yet to establish that consciousness is a separate thing from the brain. You need ot do that before your driver and car example will have any force.

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Meaningless answer.
Of course a logical ignoramous like you would consider it meaningless.

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The universe is also a body and a body need to be fed all the time.
Do you need to be fed all the time, twenty-four/seven? I hope this answer is no.

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The entropy theory go against this principle and other theories are not applicable so obviously someone is there all the time to feed this universe with energy and whatever is needed to be alive and well.
I know how entropy works, and it doesn't work this way. Entropy takes time to increase, and therefore it can take some time to reach equilibrium and heat death. Your proof is invalid.

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Actually I saw several times in different forums that atheists think that both of them are the same thing when in reality the difference is astronomic.
Just because you think that the differences are astronomic doesn't mean that they are. They are in fact quite similar in one respect that is very important: they all contain unverifiable tripe.

Quote from: Arik on June 15, 2019, 11:20:24 AM
Usually the history is mainly written by the winner and Jesus did not fight for the winner so obviously not much evidence is there for Jesus.
Then your God is dumb. I can think of a dozen different ways right off the bat for hiding evidence that Jesus performed miracles, so I'm smarter than your God.

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But again the free will make sure that people shell not be given easy evidence that God exist.
Like most of your tripe, mere assertion.

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I already answer this question in previous posts.
You did not answer in any satisfactory way.

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Evolution of the consciousness is all about getting more awareness of who you are and your relationship with the whole and this evolution of the consciousness is billion more important that the physical evolution.
Evolution is purely a process founded in materialistic physics. There is no other evolution than physical. To assert that consciousness was evolved is to admit that consciousness is a physical phenomenon and not woo.

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Physical science is only good for physical survival but man is after a lot more than that and this is something that you will find out when you will get tired of getting nowhere by relying on this material-physical dimension.
Yes, and I will go to hell if I don't believe in Jesus Christ. /sarcasm You have a hard time not making your spiel sound like a con. Either do better in making it sound actually intellectually respectable, or give up.

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If you think that mental power is not necessary then let us go a bit further and see if you can poke in your flesh metal hooks without feeling any pain.

Do you think you can do that?  :wink:
It's happened to me. I snipped into my left hand with a pair of scissors one time, and I didn't feel pain as such. It was a deep snip, too, into the subcutaneous. I washed it out and wrapped it well, and only then did the pain start. So don't tell me what I can and can't do.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Arik

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 15, 2019, 09:57:14 PM
You are merely ASSERTING that consciousness is an entity at all, let alone an abstract one. Consciousness is a process, because a consciousness that does not engage in cognition is not a consciousness, but unconsciousness. By analogy, the running of a car cannot exist without a car, yet it is as much an "abstract entity" as consciousness.
Most people aren't very intelligent, and that's the difference. I've been telling you for about THREE POSTS now that I do not accept your assertion that consciousness is an abstract entity or thing. It doesn't matter how much you repeat that ASSERTION, until you get around to proving that consciousness IS an entity, I and neuroscience in general still have good reason to think that the consciousness is what the brain does. And what the brain does is absolutely the perview of neuroscience.

It doesn't matter if you say neurologists don't study consciousness. They absolutely do.
Once again, I do no submit to your ASSERTION that consciousness is like the driver of a brain car. If you've seen Bay's Transformers, think Barricade â€" the Decepticon police cruiser. The "driver" you see "operating" Barricade is not the driver, but a hologram projected by Barricade to help in its disguise. Barricade is moving himself.

Consciousness is similar. Consciousness is not in any way analogous to the driver of the car, but more analogous to Barricade's driver hologram: the "driver" appears to be in control, but it's actually the car in control of the "driver." The consciousness appears to be in control of the brain, but the brain is fully in control and projecting the illusion of a consciousness as a controlling entity.
We are not in court. I'll call you whatever I want. Someone who cannot understand simple english has no right to tell me that anything I've said doesn't "make sense."
I don't care about your definition. You cannot prove that your consciousness "went anywhere," any more than my consciousness "goes anywhere" when I dream of Narnia.
There is no "to some, to others" nonsense. They are different types of death that someone can go through. Clinical death (heart stopping) is more properly called cardiac arrest, and it is recoverable. There's a distinct correleation between the brain dying and the person never recovering consciousness.
Too bad. People who verifiably go through NDEs always have quite intact brains. People whose brains are verifiably destroyed, don't have any verifiable NDE experiences.
No, YOU fail. When these people wake up and convey their experiences, are their brains silent and dead? No? Then their episode was obviously reversible. Remember that the ten minutes cited here is an empirical observation. It's the point where you start seeing progressive brain damage when you restore blood flow and revive the person. As the apoxia continues, the brain will deteriorate to the point where you can restore blood flow but the patient never exhibits brain function. THAT's brain death. If he's restored from apoxia and recovers some function, he's not brain dead, by definition.

So, you have not established that a brain is ever "totally lifeless." Dormant and in extremis? Yes. Dead? By definition, no.

Furthermore, even if you restore blood flow, it can take hours, even days, to regain consciousness. This is where you get NDEs lasting well over 10 minutes. Blood flow is restored, but the patient doesn't regain consciousness immediately like turning on a light. The brain is definitely working, albeit in a disorganized way, and only when that organizaion is restored is consciousness restored along with it.

So, no, you have not demonstrated that NDEs are anything other than what I say they are.
Again, mere assertion. These same people tend to have access to what happened during their episode by ordinary means. People talk. The hospital ER is not a controlled environment where you can FORCE people not to gab about the episode. In fact, talking to a comatose patient is encouraged not only under the theory that the best treatment for a disabled brain is stimulation, but also good therapy for friends and family.

This is definitely a channel by which a patient can assimilate information without woo, in addition to people gabbing after the patient has regained consciousness. The flow of information to the patient is not under any sort of control, and uncontrolled conditions make for poor data. Too poor to support an extraordinary claim like OOB experiences.

That's why you use the playing cards.

It's a piece of completely irrelevant information that is placed exactly where NDEs are reported to float above to give them the best chance of being seen if they were actually there. And, of course, they never seem to see it, even to wonder why the heck it's there. Not one of them wakes up to ask, "Incidently, can anyone tell me why there's a jack of spades up on that top shelf?"
Again, poor controls make for poor data. The controls on these cases are exceedingly poor and highly anecdotal. That's why we performed the test. The test imposed controls on a particular piece of information that only an OOBer would have access to. Yet, they fail on this very simple test. Are NDEs so incurious that not one of them wonders why the heck there was a playing card on a shelf? Tosh.

Like every other form of paranormal, it fails under a simple test with modest controls. This is the track record of every other discarded hypothesis. I would be inconsistent to not dismiss this phenomenon that runs away from verification as I did every other.
Stop appealing to preserving my pweschous fwee will. We mere humans try to pursuade each other all the time, in exactly the way we're doing with each other now. Yet nobody thinks that we're undermining each other's free will. To think that a God couldn't contain himself in this manner is simply ridiculous.
You have yet to prove that consciousness is not under the perview of neuroscience; that it's not what the brain does, the same way Barricade presents the illusion of a car with a driver even though it's only the Decepticon.

Ponder that.


You have not. You don't give ANY evidence at all that you have a genuine consciousness rather than a sham one. All you have done is asserted that you do. Sorry, a preprogrammed automaton can do that.
Wouldn't God have an interest in using NDEs to try to prove both the supernatural and himself? Establishing that a channel of communication can be relied upon is step one of communication. A God that doesn't understand this... is dumb.
You have yet to prove that there is a God to experience.
A God should be perfectly capable of showing that there is something beyond the material to be considered in a complete wordview. So far, all the evidence has been found wanting. That's not our fault. A world with supernatural content that presents itself to every reliable means of verification as only material is indistinguishable from one that is only material, and a supernatural so unwilling to present itself to verification is also one that is irrelevant. Material concerns makes itself felt in every aspect in our lives. Immaterial ones, not so much.
There is no evolutionary advantage to a consciousness that is permanent after death. It doesn't help the differential survival of an organism's genes. Evolution has no handle on making a consciousness permanet and able to survive death.
Again, consider Barricade. Once more, you have yet to establish that consciousness is a separate thing from the brain. You need ot do that before your driver and car example will have any force.
Of course a logical ignoramous like you would consider it meaningless.
Do you need to be fed all the time, twenty-four/seven? I hope this answer is no.
I know how entropy works, and it doesn't work this way. Entropy takes time to increase, and therefore it can take some time to reach equilibrium and heat death. Your proof is invalid.
Just because you think that the differences are astronomic doesn't mean that they are. They are in fact quite similar in one respect that is very important: they all contain unverifiable tripe.
Then your God is dumb. I can think of a dozen different ways right off the bat for hiding evidence that Jesus performed miracles, so I'm smarter than your God.
Like most of your tripe, mere assertion.
You did not answer in any satisfactory way.
Evolution is purely a process founded in materialistic physics. There is no other evolution than physical. To assert that consciousness was evolved is to admit that consciousness is a physical phenomenon and not woo.
Yes, and I will go to hell if I don't believe in Jesus Christ. /sarcasm You have a hard time not making your spiel sound like a con. Either do better in making it sound actually intellectually respectable, or give up.
It's happened to me. I snipped into my left hand with a pair of scissors one time, and I didn't feel pain as such. It was a deep snip, too, into the subcutaneous. I washed it out and wrapped it well, and only then did the pain start. So don't tell me what I can and can't do.



Since aitm told me to shut up or else I can not really reply to your post.

I will shut up but at least let me laugh when you say that............There is no other evolution than physical............

Have a good day anyway.  :wink:









When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling. Live your life so that when you die, you’re the one smiling and everyone around you is crying. Tulsi Das

Arik

Quote from: Baruch on June 15, 2019, 08:07:32 PM
Worshipper of idols?  Sounds like paganism to me.  Magic letters?  Sounds like Salem Mass.


Has been a pleasure to see you around.
I may see you again in some other place who knows.

Time to go because the people of letters don't like to be challenged and are upset.
Bye.
When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling. Live your life so that when you die, you’re the one smiling and everyone around you is crying. Tulsi Das

Baruch

Quote from: Arik on June 16, 2019, 08:02:53 AM

Has been a pleasure to see you around.
I may see you again in some other place who knows.

Time to go because the people of letters don't like to be challenged and are upset.
Bye.

Yes, enjoy Australia, is it?  Yes, a pleasure to have you visit.  Don't be a stranger.  I still have the links you shared, for further exploration.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.