Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe

Started by Mike Cl, December 31, 2017, 11:27:04 PM

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Mike Cl

Hey, sweety, you are an idiot--actually you give idiots a bad name.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

We all have our limitations.  Some are more limited than others.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

pr126

Ultimate peace means where everyone in the world is under the Islamic rule.

Jason78

Wow, a five minute video about completely misunderstanding atheism.   

What made you think anyone here would be receptive to that kind of ignorance?
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Blackleaf

First, the plural of "evidence" is "evidence." Second, go away.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Munch

Quote from: Jason78 on January 01, 2018, 01:17:00 AM
Wow, a five minute video about completely misunderstanding atheism.   

What made you think anyone here would be receptive to that kind of ignorance?

maybe he thinks we're easy to convert to his way of thinking.

ooh.. oooh no.. its happening.. I'm feel myself changing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igaAvFquxfg

aah, thats better.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Unbeliever

Quote from: sweetto on December 31, 2017, 11:24:38 PM
https://youtu.be/pmgyMFBi43Q

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Again with the Kalam cosmological argument. I don't have time to go throught he reasoning behind its failure, so I'll just have to post a video that does a pretty good job of it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD06eEbrzjs


And another, just 'cause this guy's really cute:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EVGkl7lj_4
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Not bad physicalism argument ... as opposed to the older materialism argument.  I happen to agree, that within the limits of the physical universe, physics applies, and we keep tweaking bit by bit, what that means, technically.  But that doesn't justify Star Trek, Dr Who or Star Wars nonsense.

This is misnamed.  The original Kalam argument, was part of the original Islamic theology ... via Arabic religious revelation plus Greek philosophy, circa 800-1200 CE.  The original argument (recently studied as part of my Judeo-Arabic studies) was borrowed into Christianity, from Judaism, who borrowed it from Islam.

It was theologians who first imagined a world created ex nihilo.  This only came into science, recently.  Theologians came up with that, because the notion of an eternal universe, was contrary to their notions of Creation ... it made G-d subordinate to nature.  And in Islam they went further, that the idea that reason rules, also was an affront to the arbitrary power of G-d.  So in orthodox Islam, but not in Orthodox Christianity or Judaism, it became necessary to assert a non-material, non-eternal, finite, non-rational universe.  Materialism, eternity, infinity or reason ... were contrary to an arbitrarily powerful godhead. 

Basically the paradox of an infinite power meeting up with infinite resistance was settled in favor of infinite power.  Even cause/effect is denied in Kalam after 1200 CE.  This is called occasionalism ... that what happens one minute ago, didn't determine what happens now, but rather the past, present and future have no necessary relationship, that G-d's infinite power (the only infinity allowed) makes necessary continuity unnecessary.  People see causality, not because it is there, but because G-d wants them to see it there ... like an artist mixing paints into a rainbow, but the colors never had to be in that particular order, it was the arbitrary choice of the painter.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hakurei Reimu

#8
Any theist argument that the universe would have run out of usable energy by now if it existed forever has to answer to the Poincaré recurrence theorem. Because the second law applies, the universe can reasonably be taken to be ergodic. But an ergodic system will have all states of the system accessible, including the initial state. Ergo, a universe in which the second law will cause an even mixing of the universe will also have a recurrence time for its initial state â€" the universe will once in a redonkulously long while spontaneously unmix itself and begin again as if for the first time.

Remember that the entropy we see on the macroscale is a reasonable consequence of the equipartition principle, which states that all microstates are equally likely, only that the "ordered" microstates are so much fewer than "disordered" ones that your chances of finding one are very very small. But this the definition of an ergodic system, and the recurrence theorem applies.

As so often happens, the creationist twits have it exactly backwards. Just like we have found transitional forms as actually demanded by evolutionary theory, and that creationist delusions of what constitute a transitional form would actually disprove evolution, the second law of thermodynamics actually works against them even though creationists think it's slam dunk evidence for a creator.
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Baruch

As far as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincaré_recurrence_theorem goes ... that says system will return to initial state.  We don't know what the initial state was, prior to the 3.5K boundary.  Not observationally.  Wouldn't that imply an oscillating universe (currently not observed) that returns to basically mostly hydrogen and some helium?  I think that is assuming ... no phase changes, no atomic or subatomic changes (aka a gas behaving classically).

Not an objection, just that it isn't terribly clear to pull some higher math out of nowhere.  Got quantum gravity?  Didn't think so.  I would agree that ... the idea that the Second Thermodynamic Law applied to the whole universe, is facile on the face of it.  So not a good way to disallow an infinitely old universe.  There is no observational evidence of that anyway.  Again, the original reason for rejecting an eternal universe was purely theological.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Hydra009

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on January 04, 2018, 11:18:22 AMRemember that the entropy we see on the macroscale is a reasonable consequence of the equipartition principle, which states that all microstates are equally likely, only that the "ordered" microstates are so much fewer than "disordered" ones that your chances of finding one are very very small. But this the definition of an ergodic system, and the recurrence theorem applies.


In basic english: the second law of thermodynamics doesn't obliterate the beach, it just knocks over the sand castle.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2018, 01:24:32 PM
I thought it was purely Aristotelian.

Good point.  This is why Islam rejected philosophy (mostly Aristotle) because he allowed an un-moved mover ... an impersonal creator.  Aristotle didn't allow infinite regressions in time or causality.  But ultimately Muslim theologians rejected even the Aristotelian argument for a finite past ... because it reduced G-d.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

And of course, anything that reduces God in any way is pure evil.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: Baruch on January 04, 2018, 01:22:11 PM
As far as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincaré_recurrence_theorem goes ... that says system will return to initial state.  We don't know what the initial state was, prior to the 3.5K boundary.  Not observationally.  Wouldn't that imply an oscillating universe (currently not observed) that returns to basically mostly hydrogen and some helium?  I think that is assuming ... no phase changes, no atomic or subatomic changes (aka a gas behaving classically).
No, phase changes are allowed in this, because the recurrence theorem applies to phase spaces, where every possible configuration of the universe is represented by a single point in some abstract space of obscenely large dimension, each group of six dimensions representing a single particle's coordinates in space and its momentum. (This, of course, gets much hairier in a universe where the number of particles can change, but there are ways of handling that.) A classical gas will more easily (and thus sooner) return to an initial state, but even oxygen atoms will disintegrate over very long timespans, because protons and neutrons will spontaneously tunnel out of the nucleus and become free particles again. They'll even tunnel out of black holes

Quote from: Baruch on January 04, 2018, 01:22:11 PM
Not an objection, just that it isn't terribly clear to pull some higher math out of nowhere.  Got quantum gravity?  Didn't think so.  I would agree that ... the idea that the Second Thermodynamic Law applied to the whole universe, is facile on the face of it.  So not a good way to disallow an infinitely old universe.  There is no observational evidence of that anyway.  Again, the original reason for rejecting an eternal universe was purely theological.
Well, unlike quantum gravity, we do understand the recurrence theorem and what it involves. It also gives us the possibility of an eternal, cyclic universe that is completely in line with the second law of thermodynamics. Theists have to take note that science is really of the habit of spoiling your parties. After all, scientists are far more familiar with these principles and have thought about this shit for longer than theologians, and if the simple lines of logic theists use actually worked, we would have known of that centuries ago.

It makes you wonder if your bog-standard theists are actually sincerely stupid, arrogant to the core, or know they're talking shit. I don't deny that the possibility of all three to various degrees may be the case.
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