The Greatest Ever Infographic - Napoleon in Russia

[Unbeliever]

in 1862 Charles Joseph Minard created a much-praised infographic depicting Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T7jMcstxY0


I knew Napoleon's Russia campaign was a disaster, but this really shows how bad it was!

[Baruch]

Typhus, Russians and Cossacks ... Oh My!

[Cavebear]

I knew Napoleon's Russia campaign was a disaster, but this really shows how bad it was!

My apologies, but any history student wouldn't need that much explaining to describe Napoleon's failed attack.  Russia's best defense was General Winter and Napoleon's failure to equip his troops for what any local peasant could have told him what was to come.

[Baruch]

My apologies, but any history student wouldn't need that much explaining to describe Napoleon's failed attack.  Russia's best defense was General Winter and Napoleon's failure to equip his troops for what any local peasant could have told him what was to come.

Like the Union at Bull Run ... it was supposed to be a short war ;-(

[Cavebear]

Like the Union at Bull Run ... it was supposed to be a short war ;-(

No.  Bull Run/First Manassas was not a weather event.  I could go on about it but the simple fact is that General Winter was not involved there.

[Baruch]

No.  Bull Run/First Manassas was not a weather event.  I could go on about it but the simple fact is that General Winter was not involved there.

Missed the point.  The Confederacy thought it would be a short war also.  Hitler thought he would have Stalin beat (Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad occupied) by new year 1942.  But he got a late start in June 1941 ... and the Soviets turned out to be tougher when in the corner, than he expected.  Maybe something to do with the Nazis immediately exterminating civilians, and starving millions of Soviet POWs to death (they never got to any POW camps usually).  Napoleon never won the hearts and minds either, only the Russian upper class was pro-French culture.

As the war continued, more Union/Confederate soldiers died from disease than from enemy fire.  Weather did have its effect.

[Cavebear]

Missed the point.  The Confederacy thought it would be a short war also.  Hitler thought he would have Stalin beat (Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad occupied) by new year 1942.  But he got a late start in June 1941 ... and the Soviets turned out to be tougher when in the corner, than he expected.  Maybe something to do with the Nazis immediately exterminating civilians, and starving millions of Soviet POWs to death (they never got to any POW camps usually).  Napoleon never won the hearts and minds either, only the Russian upper class was pro-French culture.

As the war continued, more Union/Confederate soldiers died from disease than from enemy fire.  Weather did have its effect.

Damn. Lost the reply due to a computer hiccup.

Ok, the 2nd try is never as good, but here goes...

In the US Civil War, the 1st battle at Bull Run was a warm and sunny day.  Ladies and gentlemen turned out to watch.  Yes, the soldiers were hot in their wollen uniforms but it was about what they were accustomed too.  Men wern't fallinbg over dead from exposure.

Napoleon's army faced different circumstances.  They were under-clothed for the temperatures in Russia.  They fell over dead on the way to Moscow and on the way back.  In fact, General Winter was so cruel on the way back that soldiers could slice off a bit of horseflesh.  The horses were so frozen they neither felt it nor bled.  Until enough was sliced off that they died.

General Winter doesn't matter?

Learning nothing from Napoleon, Hitler flung his troops against Stalingrad equally ill-equipped.  Soldiers fell over dead and stayed in their last position until Spring.   Their equipment failed due to the oil in the engines freezing.  Metal parts actually just snapped.

What was that you joking about "General Winter" again?

I'm an old hippie anti-war war expert.

Hey, I DID an irony... 

[Baruch]

Wars usually last longer than planned, except for the 7 Day Israeli war.

[Shiranu]

That was infact a great info graphic.

[Baruch]

The Illustrious Dead by Stephan Talty ... shows how typhus was the principle destroyer of pre-modern armies.  Napoleon's army in Palestine had to cope with regular plague ;-(

[Minimalist]

No.  Bull Run/First Manassas was not a weather event.  I could go on about it but the simple fact is that General Winter was not involved there.

No.  Bull Run/First Manassas was not a weather event.  I could go on about it but the simple fact is that General Winter was not involved there.

I took my son to Manassas, Virginia as part of a Civil War learning tour.  We were in Manassas 3 days short of the 130th anniversary of the battle in July, 1991.  Conditions that day mimicked those of the day of the battle.  The temperatures were in the upper 90's and the humidity was even worse.  We were wearing shorts and t-shirts and carrying a camera and we were fucking dying even though we were walking on the carefully maintained walkways that the Parks Service had installed.  While we sat on a bench looking out at Henry Hill and sucking down big bottles of water I told him to consider what it would have been like to have been wearing a wool uniform, carrying a musket, ammo and bayonet under similar weather conditions.  Moreover, McDowell's plan of attack called for starting the troops early in the morning so that by the time the actually got engaged with serious confederate forces they had been marching through the growing heat for five to six hours.  They were not trained for it.   They were not conditioned for it.

Lincoln, in response to McDowell's correct observation that his troops were too green to launch an offensive made one of the stupidest remarks of his life.  "You are green, it is true.  But they are green also.  You are all green together."  Yet only one side was being asked to conduct a long approach march in blistering conditions while the other side sat on their asses waiting for them. 

When the Federals crested the hill and found Jackson's Brigade waiting for them while Johnston's troops arrived as reinforcements from Chinn Ridge slightly to the rear of their right flank it was all too much.  They used whatever energy they had left running for their lives.

But B. is correct.  The rebels did not pursue because they were too disorganized to mount a pursuit but more because both sides expected one big battle and they had just won it.  They thought the war was over.  They didn't have to pursue.

They were wrong.

[Cavebear]

I took my son to Manassas, Virginia as part of a Civil War learning tour.  We were in Manassas 3 days short of the 130th anniversary of the battle in July, 1991.  Conditions that day mimicked those of the day of the battle.  The temperatures were in the upper 90's and the humidity was even worse.  We were wearing shorts and t-shirts and carrying a camera and we were fucking dying even though we were walking on the carefully maintained walkways that the Parks Service had installed.  While we sat on a bench looking out at Henry Hill and sucking down big bottles of water I told him to consider what it would have been like to have been wearing a wool uniform, carrying a musket, ammo and bayonet under similar weather conditions.  Moreover, McDowell's plan of attack called for starting the troops early in the morning so that by the time the actually got engaged with serious confederate forces they had been marching through the growing heat for five to six hours.  They were not trained for it.   They were not conditioned for it.

Lincoln, in response to McDowell's correct observation that his troops were too green to launch an offensive made one of the stupidest remarks of his life.  "You are green, it is true.  But they are green also.  You are all green together."  Yet only one side was being asked to conduct a long approach march in blistering conditions while the other side sat on their asses waiting for them. 

When the Federals crested the hill and found Jackson's Brigade waiting for them while Johnston's troops arrived as reinforcements from Chinn Ridge slightly to the rear of their right flank it was all too much.  They used whatever energy they had left running for their lives.

But B. is correct.  The rebels did not pursue because they were too disorganized to mount a pursuit but more because both sides expected one big battle and they had just won it.  They thought the war was over.  They didn't have to pursue.

They were wrong.

That is a rather good description of the battle.  Union troops did indeed have to march to chosen Confederate defensive positions under difficult physical conditions.

But though the Union soldiers fled the battlefield, the losses were about even on both sides.

McDowell’s 28,400 men suffered 480 killed, 1,000 wounded, and 1,200 missing, for a total loss of 2,680 casualties, approximately 9.5 percent.  Beauregard and Johnston’s combined force of 30,800 had 390 killed, 1,600 wounded, and about a dozen missing, a total of approximately 2,000 or about 6.5 percent.  You might note that most of the difference was "missing".  A lot of the 90 day Union soldiers just went home,

I will object slightly to your interpretation of "You are green, it is true.  But they are green also.  You are all green together."  Lincoln was correct about the soldiers.  None had faced enemy fire (though some had been in the US/Mexican War).  But his point was that new soldiers thrown into battle were not prepared for the reality of death.  I will say that the Confederates had better generals and line officers; they had a military tradition.  The Union armies had mostly politicians forming units at first (though some were talented and become experienced quickly. 

If you are interested in "alternative history", consider the idea that Lee accepted the Union Command.  The war would have been over in a few months.  Just acknowledging his skill...

Both sides approached the war thinking it would "glorious" and brave and all that crap.  That battle did change some opinions of war.  Photography had an affect too.  Pictures of soldiers blown apart was a shock to both sides.  That may seem strange to us now, but it was a new realization then.

Civilians turning out to watch the battle shows that.  And they hampered the military operations on the field.  The battle was altogether a stupid mess.

I could go on, but I await discussion...

[Baruch]

Cavebear ... excellent observations on Bull Run.  The Confederates I think, already noted then, that the Union artillery was better than theirs.  Yes, Robert E Lee is more guilty than most, for putting Virginia loyalty over US loyalty.  That and Arlington National Cemetery, can never be erased.

[Cavebear]

Cavebear ... excellent observations on Bull Run.  The Confederates I think, already noted then, that the Union artillery was better than theirs.  Yes, Robert E Lee is more guilty than most, for putting Virginia loyalty over US loyalty.  That and Arlington National Cemetery, can never be erased.

Yeah, the Union side sufferred from having less best top generals.  And some of their best died early.  But it never was a matter of "best generals" though the Confederates had them, it was a matter of organizing materiel, food, and weaponry..  The Western Front produced the better generals for the Union.

But it is also worth noting the Union railroads, industrialization, and manufacturing capacity.  The Confederates never really stood a chance.  By the end of the war, the Union was sending "excess troops" out west to fight the Indians because they had too many to feed in Virginia.  Logistics became so crowded on the rails...

[Baruch]

Yeah, the Union side sufferred from having less best top generals.  And some of their best died early.  But it never was a matter of "best generals" though the Confederates had them, it was a matter of organizing materiel, food, and weaponry..  The Western Front produced the better generals for the Union.

But it is also worth noting the Union railroads, industrialization, and manufacturing capacity.  The Confederates never really stood a chance.  By the end of the war, the Union was sending "excess troops" out west to fight the Indians because they had too many to feed in Virginia.  Logistics became so crowded on the rails...

The Confederates were counting on British or French intervention.  Hence the Trent affair and the raider CSS Alabama.  But it was the Russians who kept the British from intervening.  France already had its hands full in Mexico.  After the war, it was easy to simply order the French out of Mexico.  Dooming Emperor Maximilian (Austrian head of French occupied Mexico).