Author Topic: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...  (Read 719 times)

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2019, 05:13:21 PM »
And if I'm not fixated? Which I'm not.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2019, 05:22:45 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
And if I'm not fixated? Which I'm not.

Then neither Patton nor Montgomery meet your definition of battlefield generals either...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2019, 05:30:10 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Then neither Patton nor Montgomery meet your definition of battlefield generals either...
Based on a pop culture knowledge of all.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2019, 05:38:00 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Based on a pop culture knowledge of all.
Look, I admire Patton for his skills.  I admire Montgomery for his skill.  I admire Eisenhower for hi skills.  But you just aren't getting it.  NONE of them went into battle "leading the charge", waving their swords around screaming "follow me, follow me".

And they shouldn't.  It takes too much training to develop a really good general (as each was).  Give it up...  Declare victory  and start a new thread or something...

;)
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2019, 05:39:37 PM »
I won't argue physics with Feynman or history with you.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2019, 06:01:28 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I won't argue physics with Feynman or history with you.

I'm sure Richard is honored to be mentioned in the same sentence with me.  He's a pretty good theorist...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2019, 06:11:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm sure Richard is honored to be mentioned in the same sentence with me.  He's a pretty good theorist...

Our own Joe ... used to diss Feynman because of his fetish for Einstein.

Eisenhower was under the rock of Gibraltar, the whole time the N Africa campaign went on (for US 1943-43).  Patton actually was in the field, but well behind the lines, ordering those who were in the field of fire.  Patton's combat experience was in WW I, as a tank innovator, trainer, leader.  Aside from his adventure against Pancho Villa before WW I, his only war wound was earned when he caught a stray bullet in his butt while leading outside the tanks (you use infantry and tanks combined).  He wasn't in the tank when wounded.  He did get strafed in N Africa by Axis planes.

Eisenhower's best experience was advocating coast to coast highways, just after WW I, for military reasons.  That led to the interstate highway system in the 1950s.  But he was the one who inspired Route 66 long before that.  He was involved in logistics and training, even training tanks for WW I, stateside ... so had that in common with Patton.  His combat before WW II, was helping Douglas McArthur burn out the veterans who were protesting outside Washington DC.

Both were great men.  But not like the colonels who led from the front during the Civil War (and thus highest casualty rate of any rank).
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 06:27:02 PM by Baruch »
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2019, 08:10:09 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Our own Joe ... used to diss Feynman because of his fetish for Einstein.

Eisenhower was under the rock of Gibraltar, the whole time the N Africa campaign went on (for US 1943-43).  Patton actually was in the field, but well behind the lines, ordering those who were in the field of fire.  Patton's combat experience was in WW I, as a tank innovator, trainer, leader.  Aside from his adventure against Pancho Villa before WW I, his only war wound was earned when he caught a stray bullet in his butt while leading outside the tanks (you use infantry and tanks combined).  He wasn't in the tank when wounded.  He did get strafed in N Africa by Axis planes.

Eisenhower's best experience was advocating coast to coast highways, just after WW I, for military reasons.  That led to the interstate highway system in the 1950s.  But he was the one who inspired Route 66 long before that.  He was involved in logistics and training, even training tanks for WW I, stateside ... so had that in common with Patton.  His combat before WW II, was helping Douglas McArthur burn out the veterans who were protesting outside Washington DC.

Both were great men.  But not like the colonels who led from the front during the Civil War (and thus highest casualty rate of any rank).
You are apparently obsessed with old-style generals leading charges and commanding forward units.  That mostly went out in the US Civil War when it occurred to tacticians that sniping the front officers would pretty much screw up any attack.  Obviously, by WWII, no high level generals were anywhere near the front.

As you admit, Patton was never actually near the front.  And he shouldn't have been.  Neither should Eisenhower been.  I can't find evidence of your suggestion that he suggested interstate highway before he became President.  Can you provide a link?  I would find that interesting.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2019, 08:21:23 AM »
Patton was often at the front.

And you're right, he shouldn't have been.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2019, 10:14:49 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Patton was often at the front.

And you're right, he shouldn't have been.

Please show me how Patton was really "At The Front"...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2019, 11:23:13 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Please show me how Patton was really "At The Front"...
Who relieved Bastogne?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2019, 12:31:34 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Who relieved Bastogne?

You aren't getting it.  Patton planned the relief of Bastogne BRILLIANTLY. but he did not lead the troops shooting Germans!

I'll grant that he came damn close and I consider him "up there" with the best of the front line types in modern times, but he was never ever in any danger of taking a bullet, and properly so.  He was too expensive to train for that.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2019, 07:29:38 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You aren't getting it.  Patton planned the relief of Bastogne BRILLIANTLY. but he did not lead the troops shooting Germans!

I'll grant that he came damn close and I consider him "up there" with the best of the front line types in modern times, but he was never ever in any danger of taking a bullet, and properly so.  He was too expensive to train for that.

Perhaps in W Europe.  But in N Africa he did dodge bullets.  Don't think Ike approved that.

Yes, his work with relieving Bastogne was brilliant, but he gave all the credit to the 3rd Army under him.  What he had was "leadership" ... impossible to define.  Churchill had it too.  More often we are led by milquetoasts.  But in WW II, while they weren't far from the front, it wasn't like a colonel at Gettysburg.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2019, 07:46:01 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You aren't getting it.  Patton planned the relief of Bastogne BRILLIANTLY. but he did not lead the troops shooting Germans!

I'll grant that he came damn close and I consider him "up there" with the best of the front line types in modern times, but he was never ever in any danger of taking a bullet, and properly so.  He was too expensive to train for that.
/quibbling
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2019, 05:35:10 AM »
Cavebears favorite Star Trek episode ... "Trouble With Quibbles" ;-)
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk