Author Topic: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...  (Read 1214 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2019, 12:43:27 PM »
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Patton did not train any soldiers.  He demanded his subordinates did without having any skill to do it himself.  That in itself is not exactly a weakness on his part; he commanded well.  But he never "trained" anyone at any level well.  I'm just saying you should recognize the difference...

Indeed, his inability to actually "train" subordinates is well-documented.  As a fierce fighter, he could not understand "battle fatigue" and was never good at leading individuals in warfare.  I offer a wikipedia page discussing that [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton_slapping_incidents].

I do not hesitate to say that he was a skilled commander and tactician.  His quick recognition and planned responses to the Battle Of the Bulge (for example) are impressive.  But it was his LACK of ability to train soldiers that lead to his temporary removal from command afterwards.

Yes he was returned to command for his tactical skills after Operation Overlord, but that was the reason subordinates became his superiors in rank.

You demonstrate irrational contention and ignorance.  You are on ignore ;-)

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Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2019, 06:57:09 PM »
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I did not know the details of Eisenhower's advancement.  It makes sense that skill can be quickly recognized, though.  If I recall accurately through history, though, organizers make good leaders.  Robert Lee was a Quartermaster at the start, Grant kept supply lines operating, and Eisenhower was both an organizer and a consensus-maker.  Someone more knowledgable than I would have to tell me about his tactical skills.
He has a staff to formulate strategy. (They were in place before he was chosen, when SHAEF was as yet unchosen.)  The field commanders were the ones who formulated tactics.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2019, 12:27:55 AM »
Winston Churchill: The Wilderness Years a 8 part series, from 1981 ... is a much fuller exploration of the lead up to WW II.

The Gathering Storm, from 2002 is a more recent but lengthy treatment.

Darkest Hour really only covers a very short but crucial period after he returned to government service.

The darkest truth about the appeasers in GB and the US, is that they were philo-German at a bad time.  And more than a few were anti-Semites.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 12:49:59 AM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2019, 06:59:11 AM »
Videos have no real depth. I read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich when it first came out in paperback. Needed a serious dictionary.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2019, 07:37:56 AM »
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Videos have no real depth. I read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich when it first came out in paperback. Needed a serious dictionary.

Yes, I read that too, way back.  This is also good ...

Adolf Hitler by John Toland (1976) and more recently ....

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These convinced me of the total depravity of mankind.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2019, 02:39:58 PM »
Toland was a fluffy.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2019, 10:45:27 AM »
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You demonstrate irrational contention and ignorance.  You are on ignore ;-)

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From you, I consider that high but reluctant praise.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2019, 10:53:43 AM »
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He has a staff to formulate strategy. (They were in place before he was chosen, when SHAEF was as yet unchosen.)  The field commanders were the ones who formulated tactics.

From History.com:  "Although Eisenhower had never seen combat during his 27 years as an army officer, his knowledge of military strategy and talent for organization were such that Army Chief of Staff General George C. Marshall chose him over nearly 400 senior officers to lead U.S. forces in the war against Germany. After proving himself on the battlefields of North Africa and Italy in 1942 and 1943, Eisenhower was appointed supreme commander of Operation Overlord–the Allied invasion of northwestern Europe.

Apparently, he DID have both strategic and tactical skills.  I had forgotten that he had successful N African experience.  It is easy to forget what he did before D-Day...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2019, 10:56:08 AM »
He had skills, but his primary duty was getting all those idiots to play nice together. At one point I think he was ready to shoot Montgomery. (During the Battle of the Bulge.)
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2019, 11:05:08 AM »
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He had skills, but his primary duty was getting all those idiots to play nice together. At one point I think he was ready to shoot Montgomery. (During the Battle of the Bulge.)

You missed my point.  Eisenhower had actual battlefield experience.  Again from History.com "In July, Eisenhower was appointed lieutenant general and named to head Operation Torch, the Allied invasion of French North Africa. As supreme commander of a mixed force of Allied nationalities, services, and equipment, Eisenhower designed a system of unified command and rapidly won the respect of his British and Canadian subordinates. From North Africa, he successfully directed the invasions of Tunisia, Sicily, and the Italian mainland"

What?  You thought Patton and Montgomery led their forces from the front waving their swords?  Sure, they were closer to the troops, but they still did it behind the lines.  Subordinate Generals do that.  Even 0ne-stars lead from behind...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2019, 12:01:24 PM »
I read up on Eisenhower in the '70s. He was chosen as SHAEF for his people skills. He never micromanaged the troops in the field.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2019, 01:01:00 PM »
General Patton did micromanage soldiers in the field, not just the training grounds.  He should have delegated that part.  He had a way of kicking other subordinate commanders in the butt, which was useful.  Otherwise just a prima-donna.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2019, 01:04:01 PM »
"When things get tough they send for the sons-a-bitches."
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2019, 01:11:14 PM »
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"When things get tough they send for the sons-a-bitches."

That isn't PC today.  Wish we had done that in Vietnam.  Westmoreland was a political general, not a killer.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2019, 05:01:14 PM »
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I read up on Eisenhower in the '70s. He was chosen as SHAEF for his people skills. He never micromanaged the troops in the field.

If you are fixated on sword-waving and flag-grabbing, neither did any other general who survived WW2.

I mean face it, that went out with the war that ended all wars. (coff, coff)
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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