Author Topic: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...  (Read 1212 times)

Offline Baruch

The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« on: February 18, 2019, 05:09:31 PM »
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Agents and double agents are absolutely necessary.  Control of narrative is life or death.  Therefore once this tool exists, we can't live without it.  Directed initially against the Soviet Union and its allies.  But also by spying on our own allies, whose communications might also prove informative.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2019, 06:59:33 PM »
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Agents and double agents are absolutely necessary.  Control of narrative is life or death.  Therefore once this tool exists, we can't live without it.  Directed initially against the Soviet Union and its allies.  But also by spying on our own allies, whose communications might also prove informative.
This tool has existed for all time.  And it is a fact that this country collects intelligence on every country in the world.  I've seen some of the data--it's stored in volumes that look like the periodical guides that most libraries have; they are constantly added to.  I'm sure that they are stored in computers now, tho.  And the Army has the world divided into AO's (areas of operation) with battle plans drawn up--enemies and allies alike.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2019, 07:59:20 PM »
Hoover's secretary of state, and FDR's last secretary of war, Henry Lewis Stimson, said in the 1920s, "Gentlemen don't read each other's mail." In 1940 he was quite happy to read "Magic" and "Ultra."
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2019, 08:18:43 PM »
Control of the media ... yesterday and today.  Can you believe any of it?  Hence the need to make all independent media on Internet ... cease and desist.  You have to have a press pass, from the CIA, like Mr Woodward.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Hydra009

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2019, 09:19:12 PM »
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And the Army has the world divided into AO's (areas of operation) with battle plans drawn up--enemies and allies alike.
And that's bad?  Because drawing up plans to react to any foreseeable international crisis even among allies (allies don't always stay allies, just ask Russia and China) and assinging Areas of Responsibility and Areas of Operations seems pretty reasonable to me.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 09:21:15 PM by Hydra009 »

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2019, 09:29:47 PM »
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And that's bad?  Because drawing up plans to react to any foreseeable international crisis even among allies (allies don't always stay allies, just ask Russia and China) and assinging Areas of Responsibility and Areas of Operations seems pretty reasonable to me.
I did not mean to imply that that was bad.  It seemed a reasonable thing to do then and now.  And what I was able to read was a fun read.  Plus in the ebb and flow of history, one cannot always be sure of who is an enemy or friend down the road.  And even if the friend is still a friend, that friend may have been taken over by some other power and being familiar with the terrain and other factors would be a great aid if we were to come to that friend's defense.  Gathering intelligence seems a necessary evil.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Hydra009

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2019, 09:42:30 PM »
Ah, okay.  I might've read too much between the lines there, cause it seemed like an accusation of nefarious/belligerent intent rather than cautious vigilance.

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2019, 10:15:49 PM »
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I did not mean to imply that that was bad.  It seemed a reasonable thing to do then and now.  And what I was able to read was a fun read.  Plus in the ebb and flow of history, one cannot always be sure of who is an enemy or friend down the road.  And even if the friend is still a friend, that friend may have been taken over by some other power and being familiar with the terrain and other factors would be a great aid if we were to come to that friend's defense.  Gathering intelligence seems a necessary evil.

It is more than gathering intelligence.  Politic-economics is war by other means.  That is why we are in both hot war and economic war.  The US is based on the British Empire, which is based on the Spanish Empire, which is based on the Roman Empire.  Aggressive it is, that is what Russia/China is complaining about.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2019, 09:16:31 AM »
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It is more than gathering intelligence. 
Yes and no.  To not gather intelligence is to stay blind.  That can be dangerous.  Gathering too much intelligence, too aggressively can also be dangerous.  It is a fine line that needs to be threaded.  Even back in the day when I was a Military Intelligence Agent, we had too many agencies gathering intel and not sharing it.  I dealt with Naval, Air Force, NSA, FBI and every now and again, CIA agents.  They were a closed mouth batch.  Every request was met with 'Well, I'll have to see if I can release that to you.'  I thought that we had too many agencies gathering the same type of intel; to day that has been compounded.  That can, and does, lead to happenings like 9-11.  We had the intel to stop it, but the agencies just don't share intel with one another. 

As for Russia/China complaining about it, that is their job.  Almost all other countries complain about out intel gathering; and we complain about theirs.  Sort of like Amazon competing with IBM or Microsoft or Walmart.  That's their job. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2019, 12:42:58 PM »
Yes, supposedly 17 different Federal spy agencies now.  Not only every department wants their own spy department, but their own law enforcement arm.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2019, 03:05:23 PM »
Sometimes historical narrative gets improved ... how did Bletchley Park help sink the Bismarck?

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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2019, 02:47:55 PM »
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I did not mean to imply that that was bad.  It seemed a reasonable thing to do then and now.  And what I was able to read was a fun read.  Plus in the ebb and flow of history, one cannot always be sure of who is an enemy or friend down the road.  And even if the friend is still a friend, that friend may have been taken over by some other power and being familiar with the terrain and other factors would be a great aid if we were to come to that friend's defense.  Gathering intelligence seems a necessary evil.
People make a fuss about "Plan Red", war with the British and Commonwealth. The War Colleges created these plans, one per "school year". They were studies. The US-Canadian border is fascinating, rivers and wide waterway, small "oceans", a wide open plains border, and mountains. All that needs defended, or attacked over, as the case may be. Fifty-five hundred, twenty-five miles of border that is unfortified. How do you defend all of that? DO you defend all of that?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2019, 06:31:15 PM »
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People make a fuss about "Plan Red", war with the British and Commonwealth. The War Colleges created these plans, one per "school year". They were studies. The US-Canadian border is fascinating, rivers and wide waterway, small "oceans", a wide open plains border, and mountains. All that needs defended, or attacked over, as the case may be. Fifty-five hundred, twenty-five miles of border that is unfortified. How do you defend all of that? DO you defend all of that?
Those are fascinating studies.  And those are good and valid questions.  And I would imagine they are still being asked and answered every so often by all the branches of the military.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2019, 07:08:18 PM »
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People make a fuss about "Plan Red", war with the British and Commonwealth. The War Colleges created these plans, one per "school year". They were studies. The US-Canadian border is fascinating, rivers and wide waterway, small "oceans", a wide open plains border, and mountains. All that needs defended, or attacked over, as the case may be. Fifty-five hundred, twenty-five miles of border that is unfortified. How do you defend all of that? DO you defend all of that?

Great Britain is the Great Satan!  Who burned Washington DC?  As late as WW II, lots of Americans hated Britain.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 07:10:35 PM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: The Deep State of WW II ... continues ...
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2019, 07:09:50 PM »
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Those are fascinating studies.  And those are good and valid questions.  And I would imagine they are still being asked and answered every so often by all the branches of the military.

Including plans for Federal troops to invade Texas over to California.  Can't imagine why?
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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