Author Topic: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse  (Read 417 times)

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2019, 01:15:43 PM »
Downloading our minds to computers would make us very dependent on energy, even more so than we already are. If everyone were in that state how could we ensure we'd have no power failures that would wipe us all out?
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Offline Shiranu

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2019, 01:52:44 PM »
I've began to look at a train of thought that considers intelligence as a net "bad" in the grand scheme of things, and I have to be honest... I'm prone to agree with it.

With greater intelligence comes better problem solving, but it also leads to greater and greater problems... a constant push and pull with increasingly drastic consequences.

In Texas there is a phrase, "Too smart for your own britches", and I think that describes humanity very well... at least down the particular path of intelligence we have, consciously, chosen to cultivate.

Simplicity and internal, emotional and moral intelligence I believe would be just as useful to mankind than increasingly complex empirical and mechanical intelligence.

Machines are only as good as the mind that uses them, and yet we almost exclusively train our minds to think like machines (either scientifically or at a social level with traits like greed, ambition, status being the goal we all chase) without cultivating the moral and philosophical foundations to ensure we use those traits properly.
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2019, 02:14:46 PM »
It isn't the smart people of the world that are the problem creators, but the unintelligent, greedy, and just plain selfish. Humanity's role on the planet could be to decrease the effects of the sun growing hotter, just as life has been doing for billions of years. At the very least we could spread Earth's biosphere out to large distances so that no single disaster could wipe it all out in one stroke.

But it's the stupid, greedy, selfish people who are in charge.
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If something cannot logically exist due to incompatible properties, then it does not exist. The God of the Bible has such incompatible properties, and so it does not exist.    You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Offline Shiranu

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2019, 02:38:44 PM »
The "stupid" did not get to where they are by themselves; their empires, be it political or corporate, are predominately run at a day-to-day level by people far smarter than themselves at their given field of expertise. They vastly outnumber the greedy and power-hungry.

But without the emotional and moral intelligence to realise this and act on it, it is utterly irrelevant. This is why I said that it is just as important, if not more so, to cultivate emotional and moral intelligence alongside empirical intelligence.

You are talking about spreading our habitation, but that's exactly what I am talking about... in doing so we just create more problems. We will require yet more resources, have yet more people who will inevitably suffer under a system that values resources over individuals, and we will cause more damage to the universe around us.

When our time comes, it comes... mathematicians for over a hundred years have estimated humanity's chance of surviving past our current state is next to none... we should focus on becoming the best humans we can be rather than futility fighting a system that, when it shakes us off, won't even have the slightest idea it has done so given how insignificant we are.

We should focus on reducing suffering rather than spreading our suffering out and hoping it lasts just a little bit longer. And, if in the progress we find a way to exist longer than expected... awesome! But clinging to a hopeless desire will never end happily.
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2019, 02:45:26 PM »
There has been a concerted campaign to dumb down the voting populace, and it's been successful to an extent no one could have predicted.

The universe, as you say, won't even notice when we're gone, since it doesn't notice that we're here now. We are the eyes and mind of the universe, such as we are, and without us the universe will again be blind and oblivious.
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Offline Shiranu

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2019, 03:29:28 PM »
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There has been a concerted campaign to dumb down the voting populace, and it's been successful to an extent no one could have predicted.

The universe, as you say, won't even notice when we're gone, since it doesn't notice that we're here now. We are the eyes and mind of the universe, such as we are, and without us the universe will again be blind and oblivious.

I promise I'm not trying to write in super-long paragraphs, just struggling to keep it short :p...

I don't think there have been too many points in history where a holistic intelligence has been promoted. The overwhelming majority of history the population has been expected to be both scientifically and philosophically dumbed down.

I would also argue that it is at the peak of human scientific intelligence that we began to do, and continue to do, the most harm to the world around us.

As for being the eyes of the universe... only if we are the only life that exists will it be blind again, which I highly doubt is the case.
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2019, 03:38:36 PM »
I guess most people don't doubt it, but I do. I subscribe to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login, and believe there may well be no other life at all in the observable universe. I'll continue to believe that until I see evidence of life elsewhere. If we are the only life in the universe, then life is even more precious than we had already believed it to be.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 03:40:20 PM by Unbeliever »
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Offline Shiranu

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2019, 06:29:32 PM »
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I guess most people don't doubt it, but I do. I subscribe to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login, and believe there may well be no other life at all in the observable universe. I'll continue to believe that until I see evidence of life elsewhere. If we are the only life in the universe, then life is even more precious than we had already believed it to be.

Fair enough, but given the size of the universe... even if life is extremely, and I mean EXTREMELY, rare... the odds of us being it is still just too astronomically low to me. And that's not taking into account that planets, and planets in the habitual zones of stars, are extremely more common than we previously thought.

To each their own on that one, though, since there is no way either can prove themselves correct at this point. And likely... not at any point.


On the topic of the preciousness of life... then shouldn't we focus on improving the quality of it rather than the quantity of it? I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, of course, but at least on a thinking level (if not so much a "taking action" level) humanity is far more concerned about surviving than improving.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 06:31:19 PM by Shiranu »
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Offline Baruch

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2019, 06:52:59 PM »
Nothingburgers ... not Bilderburgers?  Debating space colonies that don't exist, or post-human computer bodies that don't exist?

The anti-humanist always hates the fact he/she has a body.  They always want to be an NPC in someone else's VR.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2019, 07:03:09 PM »
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Fair enough, but given the size of the universe... even if life is extremely, and I mean EXTREMELY, rare... the odds of us being it is still just too astronomically low to me. And that's not taking into account that planets, and planets in the habitual zones of stars, are extremely more common than we previously thought.

To each their own on that one, though, since there is no way either can prove themselves correct at this point. And likely... not at any point.


On the topic of the preciousness of life... then shouldn't we focus on improving the quality of it rather than the quantity of it? I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, of course, but at least on a thinking level (if not so much a "taking action" level) humanity is far more concerned about surviving than improving.
We still don't know nearly enough about how life got started on Earth, so it's impossible to be sure whether it might exist elsewhere. We don't know just exactly how "earthlike" a planet must be to have self-reproducing molecules for natural selection to work with. I do still think SETI is worthwhile, since if we don't look we certainly won't find anything.

I think life for humans, at least, has slowly been improving, though not so much for most of the other animals on the planet. That improvement may not continue, though, since we aren't really a rational species at all - we only pretend to be rational.
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Offline Shiranu

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2019, 10:51:03 PM »
Quote
I think life for humans, at least, has slowly been improving, though not so much for most of the other animals on the planet. That improvement may not continue, though, since we aren't really a rational species at all - we only pretend to be rational.

On this we completely agree, and I guess another way of wording my argument is that we should both spend as much time teaching rationality as we do scientific intellect but also prioritizing and exalting philosophical rationality as much as we do scientific intellect. My fear, for a lack of a better word, though is that intellect by it's very nature evolved to be largely about improving our own conditions with little consideration of others... that the "human" brain has become too powerful to be controlled by the social monkey brain.

While their reputation has undoubtedly decreased... the ability to be a super-star scientist still exists, our culture (or parts of it) do still value science to an extent that you can be a cultural icon as a scientist and our schools reward those who are scientifically proficient.

Being a super-star philosopher or moralist though? That is nigh on impossible. The closest you can get really is being a megachurch preacher, and I think a large part of that is we have let fringe groups take the lead on teaching morality rather than making it something we as a society value, something we teach in schools and have conversations with our friends about.

I think a large part of the reason comedians like Colbert, Stewart, Noah, Carlin, etc. are and were so successful is that, to a large extent, they are a voice for philosophical and moral expression that, as a society, we have lost and yet ultimately crave. Even historically comedy has been a major tool of expressing philosophy. But particularly for those first three it is far more political philosophy rather than moral philosophy like you got from comedians like Carlin.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 10:53:01 PM by Shiranu »
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Offline Cavebear

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2019, 08:54:51 AM »
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Hopefully we figure out how to digitize our brains fairly soon. The world's ecology may be fucked, but robo-humans don't have to be fucked with it! >:D

Your solution to messing up the planet is to become robots?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2019, 10:45:42 AM »
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Your solution to messing up the planet is to become robots?
Yes.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2019, 04:10:44 PM »
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Yes.

Well, I sure appreciate the honesty!  And I wouldn't mind not dying.  Is there a plan for that?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Insect Decline, Possible Ecological Collapse
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2019, 07:05:54 PM »
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Well, I sure appreciate the honesty!  And I wouldn't mind not dying.  Is there a plan for that?

You are my next Roomba.  See previous post ;-)

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 07:09:47 PM by Baruch »
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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