Author Topic: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History  (Read 908 times)

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2019, 09:50:26 AM »
From Wiki:

Quote
The Social War (from socii ("allies"), thus in Latin: Bellum Sociale;[4] also called the Italian War, the War of the Allies or the Marsic War) was a war waged from 91 to 88 BC between the Roman Republic and several of the other cities and tribes in Italy, which prior to the war had been Roman allies for centuries. The war was begun by the Picentes because the Romans did not want to afford them Roman citizenship, thus leaving the Italian groups with fewer rights. The war resulted in a Roman victory. However, Rome granted Roman citizenship to almost all of its Italian allies, to avoid another war.[5]

This war also led to a complete Romanization of Italy. The Etruscans and other Italic people quickly integrated themselves into the Roman world, after gaining Roman citizenship. Their own languages and cultures became extinct in the process.

It's an issue separate and apart from the dispossession of the peasant farmers from their land - a process which far pre-ated the demands for Roman citizenship by long term allied states.

The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2019, 11:36:48 AM »
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From Wiki:

It's an issue separate and apart from the dispossession of the peasant farmers from their land - a process which far pre-ated the demands for Roman citizenship by long term allied states.

The natural effect of endemic warfare (like we have today) and joining corporations to the state (aka fascism).  The Senate didn't see anything wrong with concentration of power away from the Plebs.  They never do, just as Belgium sees nothing wrong with the EU.
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Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2019, 07:12:54 PM »
What was the purpose of making this thread in the Political/Government section of the forum?
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Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Offline Baruch

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2019, 07:56:36 PM »
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What was the purpose of making this thread in the Political/Government section of the forum?

pr126 really .. all Western decline is the fall of Rome all over again!  Maybe, maybe not.  pr126 sees this fall as completely political, not economic or systemic.  If only we had the right messianic politicians (both authoritarian sides claim) then leadership magic could lead us out of this mess.
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Offline Baruch

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2019, 07:50:57 PM »
If history repeats ... then what is the precedent for the current US situation?

English civil war ... legislature overthrew the executive, and ended with corruption and replacement with a Dominionist (aka Oliver Cromwell) and military dictatorship.

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Trump being King Charles I, and Democrat House being Parliament.

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« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 07:52:38 PM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
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Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2019, 12:45:02 PM »
Quote
The natural effect of endemic warfare (like we have today)


I don't quite buy that, B.  Roman victory in the Second Punic War left them the masters of the Western Med but with entanglements.  By ousting Carthage from Spain the Romans found themselves embroiled in constant small scale bickering among the Spanish tribes.  Pompey hurried back from Spain 130 years later to assist in suppressing Spartacus.  Similarly, while fighting Carthage the Romans became involved in Greek affairs and a series of wars were fought with various Macedonian rulers and assortments of Greek states as either allies or enemies.  This did not end until 148 the same time as the Third Punic War ended.

The difference is the scale.  The US military is drawn from a terribly small percentage of the population who are saddled with the burdens of military service even though they are allegedly "volunteers" ( a lot of them have no alternatives.)  The Roman legions were still composed of citizens primarily from the peasant classes who had to leave their farms when called up.  It was a system which worked very well in small scale warfare in Italy and which completely broke down when troops were dispatched for extended periods to remote areas such as Spain or Greece/Asia Minor.  The farms went to shit and were bought up by the nobility while the peasants were impoverished thus decreasing the future manpower pool.  The whole thing collapsed after the disaster of Aurasio when the Senate suddenly realized that they had no one left to meet the requirements for service.  Ecce Marius!
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2019, 07:09:58 PM »
Well, we can "involvement" question for the US.  Draft all young men and women, and send them on a war of conquest ... they can't come back until they are successful.  Then we will be more Roman-like.  But that is not ... not ... something I would like!  You can hate the draft, or hate the volunteer force, or just be a pacifist.  If a pacifist, I can cook you up in a cannibal pot with the right seasonings.  I hear pacifists are particularly tender ;-)

Yes, armies led by senatorial amateurs ... are often disastrous.  Maybe a good enough reason to end civilian rule.
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Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2019, 09:41:14 PM »
You mean the way our conscript army performed in Vietnam?

We may have to hire illegal immigrants to fight our wars.  You know, the same way 'Murricans won't work in the fields!
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2019, 11:30:27 PM »
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You mean the way our conscript army performed in Vietnam?

We may have to hire illegal immigrants to fight our wars.  You know, the same way 'Murricans won't work in the fields!

Bad leadership, top to bottom, a victory doesn't make.  See Sun Tzu ... fight no unnecessary wars.  And the best war is where you have defeated your enemy before you even start.  Too bad nobody ever read him ;-)

Yes, the Romans hired Germans to fight for them, particularly after Christianity took hold ... how did that work out again?  Beta males aren't worth anything.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
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Offline Cavebear

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2019, 10:05:39 AM »
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So... are there any interesting observations to add to this, or are we just sharing random stuff from Youtube? :)

You mean like the everpresent obnoxiously repeated comic strip you inflict?.  No.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2019, 12:58:56 PM »
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You mean like the everpresent obnoxiously repeated comic strip you inflict?.  No.

That comic strip is more true than anything I have seen you post ;-)
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
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Offline Cavebear

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2019, 03:01:33 PM »
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That comic strip is more true than anything I have seen you post ;-)

A thought expressed repeatedly eventually fails to be a thought...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2019, 06:31:33 PM »
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A thought expressed repeatedly eventually fails to be a thought...

A lie told often enough, if a big enough lie, becomes a truth.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2019, 07:01:05 PM »
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A lie told often enough, if a big enough lie, becomes a truth.

No.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: The Fate of Empires: Lessons From History
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2019, 07:16:31 PM »
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No.

The Gestapo will be visiting you shortly.  Now called Anti-fa.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
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