Author Topic: Barney&Frank Comic Strip  (Read 1705 times)

Offline Cavebear

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2019, 06:35:38 AM »
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If humans are not intelligent and lack Free Will, I have no ability to decide whether I'll stop posting, so that won't change much. (You're even assuming I'm a human being and not some clever script pretending to be a human, in which case I might actually lack free will as you're describing it.)

But then what is a though without free will? "Not a thought" doesn't really narrow it down much. What is a thing that feels and acts like a thought, but isn't because it lacks free will?

This seems to be an assertion, more than an argument.

I sure hope not! That would lead to disaster when such a car comes across a sinkhole, collapsed bridge, or other unexpected obstacle. But they can actually deal with those. The whole difficulty with building autonomous vehicles is actually their needed ability to adapt to unforeseen things happening on the road. They're good enough that they react to situations faster than humans can, and sometimes even react to things that humans don't even notice. (But that, on later analysis, certainly seem to make sense and were smart choices)

Paragraph 1:  THat's your concern, not mine.

Paragraph 2:  A golem?  Seriously, not a functioning human.  Humans (undamaged) think.

Paragraph 3:  It IS an a priori statement.  An axiom. 

Paragraph 4:  I have a robotic vacuum cleaner that can avoid falling down the stairs.  A car that doesn't hit other cars is just a programmed robot.  That does not mean it is "intelligent".

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Plu

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2019, 06:56:23 AM »
I don't think there's anything useful I can get out of "humans have free will and other things do not, because".
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Online Mr.Obvious

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Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2019, 06:59:08 AM »
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I think understand the point Plu tried to make, but I disagree.  Cogito Ergo Sum, and all that.

But what I don't understand is the idea that atheism implies no free will OR that theism CAN offer it.



It doesn't. We are actually in agreement over that. Atheism doesn't imply 'no free will'. Atheism doesn't imply 'free will'. Theism doesn't imply 'no free will'. Theism doesn't imply 'free will'. Atheism or theism can be set aside here. All I can go into is how I see the question of free will. My atheism is irrelevant to that. It's non-essential.

Quote
Theisms suggest to me that there is a controlling power that "knows all sees all and controls all" (or it isn't a deity) and that the lack of such a being means that there is not a controlling power and we are on our own and can make decisions for ourselves with no deistic pre-understanding or control over what we think.

So, OK, suggest to me how an intelligent being does not have free will.

I don't think free will can exist. Depending on how you frame it.
If you mean in our day to day life; us making choices whilst not feeling predetermined by an outside force to make those decisions. Yes: that kind of 'free will' exists. On that same level: 'you' and 'I' exist. We don't experience a lack of control over our own lives. We feel like active personalities imprinting their own desires, choices and legacy into the world.

So up to that point I do agree with you. We don't feel the absence of free will. We feel it's presence. We experience it. We experience ourselves. And we experience ourselves using free will in this world. And that is how we should live our lives.

But... If you look beyond our personal, and limited experiences; I personally come to the image that that level is a 'delusion' or an 'illusion'. Which is okay, because it doesn't impact my experience. It's non-consequential to the level on which I live my life.

Basically, I think that everything in this world could hypothetically be explained by the laws of physics and the material world. Our thoughts, the very brains we are. Our feelings. All synapses shooting energy and hormones being released. You don't have control over how you feel or what you believe. There is no concrete 'you' that is seperate from the rest of the universe, free from it's influence. No seperate soul that can independently make choices. This may not be your experience of reality, as you experience there to be a 'you', but that experience of reality is not an objective gauge for reality.
So if our thoughts and feelings and thus ultimately our choices are determined by 'outside' forces, not outside intelligence or intent, but simply the laws of physics, chemistry and biology... Than at the level beyond our personal experience, you wouldn't be able to say that any form of 'free will' were to actually exist.

And thus our lives were shaped by what seems like happenstance but is actually just the only outcome that could have been since the big bang and the laws of physics governing this universe 'began'. Again: there is no intelligence behind this. No intent. But because gravity and all the other forces work the way they do, the universe and all it's galaxies and planets and elements turned out the way they turned out. Because of that, chemistry turned out the way it turned out. And so on with biology. Evolution. And ultimately; 'you'. You and I are the product of a long, long chain of events happening in no other way than they could, due to the laws of physics, and we will continue to act, unaware of how completely influenced we are by these laws, in the only way that we can; continuously shaping a future that could never have been different since the beginning of time. 
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2019, 07:03:24 AM »
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I don't think there's anything useful I can get out of "humans have free will and other things do not, because".

It is a matter of neurons.  You might want to look into that.  On the other hand, your idea means that stepping on the lawn means that you are crunching on many intelligent beings.  You might want to just suspend yourself in mid-air do avoid causing harm to the intelligent beings you imagine. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2019, 07:21:16 AM »
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A recent comic strip had a character saying "I have been drawn to the atheistic concept of the non-existence of free will and that man is hopelessly compelled by instinct and the laws of physics”.

This confused me.  I consider that atheism involves free will and that theism does not.  Yet the person who writes this strip seems rational and thoughtful.  I think, being free of any deistic control, that I have free will.  And I don't agree with ideas that I am all cellular response prior to actual thought. 

Can anyone explain this apparent discrepancy?

Depends on the metaphysics ... aieee!  If you are a Newtonian, then determinism seems likely.  If you are QM, then determinism is not true at all ... just the general thread of events is cause/effect, but most things are random.  This is completely independent of theism/atheism.  It is a question of physics.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Plu

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2019, 07:22:58 AM »
Quote
It is a matter of neurons.

Neurons can be simulated quite effectively; that's how we get machine-learning, as well as virtualized bacteria and such things. There's nothing magical about them, we build that same concept into cars. That's why learning machines work.

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You might want to look into that.  On the other hand, your idea means that stepping on the lawn means that you are crunching on many intelligent beings.  You might want to just suspend yourself in mid-air do avoid causing harm to the intelligent beings you imagine. 

How do you know what my ideas mean? At no point have I told you any of my ideas. I'm just trying to ask for clarification on what Free Will and Intelligence mean for you.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2019, 07:24:08 AM »
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Depends on the metaphysics ... aieee!  If you are a Newtonian, then determinism seems likely.  If you are QM, then determinism is not true at all ... just the general thread of events is cause/effect, but most things are random.  This is completely independent of theism/atheism.  It is a question of physics.

Newton is old hat.  Determinsim is old hat.  In fact, YOU are old hat.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2019, 07:26:07 AM »
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Eliminating the double negative says that you think that atheism leads to free will, while theism requires that one doesn't (If a deity knows what you will do, you don't have it).

Predeterminism vs predestination.  They are not the same.  Christians for instance can be found in both camps.

G-d's foreknowledge/predeterminism, doesn't necessarily mean that we are puppets.  Just that G-d knows in advance what we freely will choose (including eternal damnation).

Paul however, does seem to be predestinate, and Calvin took it from there.  For Calvin, like in Islam, if G-d decided you are saved, it doesn't matter how many people you murder.  This allowed Calvin to support the execution of Michael Servetus.

Your theology is primitive as is your binary logic.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2019, 07:34:04 AM »
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Newton is old hat.  Determinsim is old hat.  In fact, YOU are old hat.

So says the atheist/Calvinist ... you are limited to the very influential Pauline/Calvinist view, in spite of being an atheist.  Aka a post-christian, as many atheists are.  You said "an omnipotent being who both knows and controls" .... there is no a priori reason to include "controls".  Actual events correspond more to "controls but doesn't know" ... see Garden of Eden.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2019, 07:36:22 AM »
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Predeterminism vs predestination.  They are not the same.  Christians for instance can be found in both camps.

G-d's foreknowledge/predeterminism, doesn't necessarily mean that we are puppets.  Just that G-d knows in advance what we freely will choose (including eternal damnation).

Paul however, does seem to be predestinate, and Calvin took it from there.  For Calvin, like in Islam, if G-d decided you are saved, it doesn't matter how many people you murder.  This allowed Calvin to support the execution of Michael Servetus.

Your theology is primitive as is your binary logic.

LOLOL!  You are so silly sometimes.  Is it deliberate just to encourage more responses?

God knows what we will do in advance SO THAT IS FIXED, but yet you think that would be Free Will?  I have a bridge for sale. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Cavebear

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2019, 07:39:59 AM »
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So says the atheist/Calvinist ... you are limited to the very influential Pauline/Calvinist view, in spite of being an atheist.  Aka a post-christian, as many atheists are.  You said "an omnipotent being who both knows and controls" .... there is no a priori reason to include "controls".  Actual events correspond more to "controls but doesn't know" ... see Garden of Eden.

Actually, I'm mostly Kant and a lot of Hume.  The "controls" part is just a sort of general idea from the bible and most other theistic texts of all sorts.  They are mostly one and the same to me.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2019, 08:34:18 PM »
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LOLOL!  You are so silly sometimes.  Is it deliberate just to encourage more responses?

God knows what we will do in advance SO THAT IS FIXED, but yet you think that would be Free Will?  I have a bridge for sale.

You are assuming G-d has no free will.  That is theology.  When did you become a theologian?
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2019, 10:07:10 PM »
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You are assuming G-d has no free will.  That is theology.  When did you become a theologian?

After all my posts, why would you assume I think there is a deity?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2019, 02:42:43 AM »
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After all my posts, why would you assume I think there is a deity?

Your self worship is practically Abrahamic.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline aitm

Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2019, 06:29:22 PM »
The term "free-will" suggests complete "freedom" against other "wills" pushing back. There are some pretty good stories about twins and triplets being separated at birth or quite young but yet find themselves liking the same things and favoring similar behaviors. This certainly suggests that perhaps we don't have "real" freedom but rather free will is far simpler as the phrase was originally intended...that we have the freedom to choose good over "evil" and thus be condemned or rewarded by the gods.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

 

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