Author Topic: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..  (Read 145 times)

Offline Baruch

A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« on: January 17, 2019, 06:52:41 PM »
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This is consistent with the model that Plato, who was a rich educated elitist, is the founder of the Left.

Which fits right into the French and Russian revolutions.  Where European cultural decadence keeps on giving.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 02:33:18 AM »
Easier explained than asked possibly.

Left wing is the idea that changes bring progress and personal freedoms.  Right wing is the idea that status quo works and don't mess with what works.  I understand both sides.  But I do favor progress.

There have been many political experiments on both sides.  Taken to extremes, you have Nazis and Communists.  Neither worked because, at the extremes, you have to have extreme leaders and they are always insane.

So the solutions to the problems of the day are always only in the hands of more centrist leaders.  Adjust taxes here, increase spending there, etc.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Plu

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 03:09:17 AM »
It's going to be pretty tricky in general to try and divide millions of people neatly into two groups. Sounds like a losing proposition to even bother.

There's a saying that "All models are wrong, but some are useful."

I've yet to find a situation where the left-right model is useful, outside of politicians using it to stay wealthy and in power.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2019, 04:44:24 AM »
You probably can't use that cartoon forever...

Of course I'm not dividing people into two simple groups.  There is a continuum.  Maybe I'm 67.3 along some measurement and 75.4 along another.  I have many views that don't match up perfectly in one ideology or another.  That is normal for all people.

But in general there are mostly either/or political choices in life.  I mean, you don't get to vote for 3/4 one candidate and 1/4 another.  You take the important things and go vote for one.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Plu

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2019, 04:53:53 AM »
In my country, there are many different parties you can vote for. That's probably why people here don't seem to think so black and white, and you get to look for someone reasonably close to your own ideals. Or, if you feel the need, to start your own party and have a chance of actually getting elected. The whole idea of all parties here being divided around a single axis is a lot less prominent, and generally it's considered an oversimplification even on a two axis graph.

(Also, my response was to the general topic, not specifically what you were saying, if you were thinking that)

And that cartoon has been my signature for years and I still find it a very thought provoking one, so I'm sure it'll stay for quite a bit longer :grin:
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Offline Cavebear

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2019, 05:11:04 AM »
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In my country, there are many different parties you can vote for. That's probably why people here don't seem to think so black and white, and you get to look for someone reasonably close to your own ideals. Or, if you feel the need, to start your own party and have a chance of actually getting elected. The whole idea of all parties here being divided around a single axis is a lot less prominent, and generally it's considered an oversimplification even on a two axis graph.

(Also, my response was to the general topic, not specifically what you were saying, if you were thinking that)

And that cartoon has been my signature for years and I still find it a very thought provoking one, so I'm sure it'll stay for quite a bit longer :grin:

I did realize after my last post that your cartoon was your "sig".  Please accept my apologies for misunderstanding that.  I might also make a point with a large graphic, but I choose not to do so.

As a political science major in college, I know a good bit about multiple parties in the US and elsewhere.  One observation I will make is that multiple parties thrive in disrupted unstable nations.  Another is that nations with multiple parties tend to combine in rather cynical power plays aligning with other parties they have no rational connection to.  That way lies madness.

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Plu

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2019, 05:21:24 AM »
I don't really see how merging multiple parties into a single, bigger one results in less cynical power plays aligning with people they have no rational connection to. The only change to me seems to be that all the aligning and power-playing is now happening inside instead of outside and you're always doing it with the same people.

(Or why 2 is the magic number, and it doesn't make more sense to just merge the last two as well and end up with a single party.)
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Offline Cavebear

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2019, 05:32:33 AM »
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I don't really see how merging multiple parties into a single, bigger one results in less cynical power plays aligning with people they have no rational connection to. The only change to me seems to be that all the aligning and power-playing is now happening inside instead of outside and you're always doing it with the same people.

(Or why 2 is the magic number, and it doesn't make more sense to just merge the last two as well and end up with a single party.)

Its the way the US 3-power government is set up.  Not having lived elsewhere, multiple parties might well work.  But I recall something I wrote in a paper in college about the Wallace campaign.  "3rd Parties are like bees; they sting once and then they die".  In my considered experience, 3rd parties have mostly caused the better candidates to lose elections. 

You might want to read 'They Also Ran' by Irving Stone.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 07:19:14 AM »
But the power of three is stable.  Two - branches of government (say minus SCOTUS) would always be in dead-lock.  The SCOTUS is there to prevent that.  So a third party would be good, but as it is, the US only has the unorganized Independents as a third party.  That is the party I belong to.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2019, 07:22:29 AM »
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But the power of three is stable.  Two - branches of government (say minus SCOTUS) would always be in dead-lock.  The SCOTUS is there to prevent that.  So a third party would be good, but as it is, the US only has the unorganized Independents as a third party.  That is the party I belong to.

Spoiler alert!  3rd parties are spoilers in the US.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2019, 07:35:36 AM »
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Spoiler alert!  3rd parties are spoilers in the US.

Too bad we aren't exterminators also ... que Arnold robot ... I would outlaw both major parties.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2019, 07:44:42 AM »
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Too bad we aren't exterminators also ... que Arnold robot ... I would outlaw both major parties.

Good joke about The Arnold!  Yah, ve vould fix things here an in da future...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: A clearer definition of Left vs Right ..
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2019, 08:35:23 PM »
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Good joke about The Arnold!  Yah, ve vould fix things here an in da future...

Until he got that transgender vacation on Mars ;-)
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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