Author Topic: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences  (Read 333 times)

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2018, 09:47:34 AM »
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Some people are more suggestible, even without a drug.  Some people have better imaginations.

I was surprised to learn I'm pretty suggestible when it comes to hypnotism.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Offline Sal1981

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2018, 09:49:47 AM »
I just need to stop taking my meds for getting vivid imaginations going.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Offline Baruch

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2018, 11:02:00 AM »
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I was surprised to learn I'm pretty suggestible when it comes to hypnotism.

Imagination or suggestibility is a talent, a two edged tool.  Politicians use this talent against you.  And John Lennon uses it the same way.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Hydra009

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2018, 11:30:56 AM »
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Still, I'm not completely convinced surrendering my judgment to others is ultimately in my best interest or that the wisdom of the crowd is going to produce the best solution.
Sorry, I realize now my response in utterly rejecting gut feelings as our guiding star could've been misconstrued as endorsing a "truth by consensus" type epistemology.  Given the current and historical popularity of supernatural beliefs - beliefs that I do not share - this would seem like a very strange position for me to espouse!  Naturally, I don't actually hold that position.  In fact, I view both positions pretty negatively.  I should have made that clear earlier.

Gut feelings are an extremely poor guide to truth for reasons that are so obvious that I won't insult any reader's intelligence by explicitly going over them.

The wisdom of the crowds is definitely an improvement (at least for movies), but an improvement on something that awful isn't much of an improvement.  Given the numerous examples of popular delusions, folk "wisdom" that's actually incorrect, and various common misconceptions, it's clear that consensus alone does not necessitate truth.

My alternative, indeed the only real alternative to mere opinion, is scientific skepticism (which is rooted in empiricism).  You test claims for veracity by seeing how well it maps to reality.  If someone says that their horse can do algebra, you run a series of experiments to verify if this is in fact the case.  You don't just take their word for it.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2019, 07:56:40 AM »
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I was surprised to learn I'm pretty suggestible when it comes to hypnotism.

While taking a "relaxation experience" in a college health class, I was not surprised to find I was not the least suggestible.  The instructor even mentioned to me to be aware of that in the future.

I did not find that unusual, as I seem to be entirely unresponsive to external suggestions like advertisements, blandishments, and sales pitches, etc.  I might be so bold as to suggest that is why I'm unmarried, LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline aitm

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2019, 09:38:25 AM »
My wife and I tried the group hypnotism to quit smoking and I tried my best to allow it to happen. Afterwards when they told us that we all had successfully been under their "spell" they suggested that in order to help with the process it would be wise to purchase their "natural drugs" that help eliminate the desire and reactions, that I started to feel that ole black magic wane.

Now technically you could say that it worked......five years later when I decided that the time was right and I quit....but not so for the wife.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Cavebear

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2019, 10:28:43 AM »
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My wife and I tried the group hypnotism to quit smoking and I tried my best to allow it to happen. Afterwards when they told us that we all had successfully been under their "spell" they suggested that in order to help with the process it would be wise to purchase their "natural drugs" that help eliminate the desire and reactions, that I started to feel that ole black magic wane.

Now technically you could say that it worked......five years later when I decided that the time was right and I quit....but not so for the wife.

It is hard to say "the smarter the better", but well "the smarter the better".  The better you are at recognizing reality, the less likely you are to accept external suggestions.

And to any of you who "hypnotizable", I would like to arrange a group meeting.  Bring your best valuables please. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2019, 10:53:28 AM »
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While taking a "relaxation experience" in a college health class, I was not surprised to find I was not the least suggestible.  The instructor even mentioned to me to be aware of that in the future.

I did not find that unusual, as I seem to be entirely unresponsive to external suggestions like advertisements, blandishments, and sales pitches, etc.  I might be so bold as to suggest that is why I'm unmarried, LOL!

Color me unsurprised.  I don't know how suggestible I am, but I almost never respond to advertising.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2019, 10:54:19 AM »
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It is hard to say "the smarter the better", but well "the smarter the better".  The better you are at recognizing reality, the less likely you are to accept external suggestions.

And to any of you who "hypnotizable", I would like to arrange a group meeting.  Bring your best valuables please.

Plato can recognize reality, so you are Plato?
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2019, 10:55:42 AM »
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My wife and I tried the group hypnotism to quit smoking and I tried my best to allow it to happen. Afterwards when they told us that we all had successfully been under their "spell" they suggested that in order to help with the process it would be wise to purchase their "natural drugs" that help eliminate the desire and reactions, that I started to feel that ole black magic wane.

Now technically you could say that it worked......five years later when I decided that the time was right and I quit....but not so for the wife.

Hypnotism only works if you aren't trying ... that is how the induction gets to your subconscious.  Most people here wouldn't be very suggestible, since they are highly analytical and critical.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2019, 11:17:02 AM »
Being suggestible to hypnotism isn't the same as being gullible. I don't know if I'm more or less gullible than the average person. This is from Wikipedia (so take it with a grain of salt):

Individuals of extremely high hypnotizability tend to have distinctive characteristics outside of hypnosis. In 1981, Sherl Wilson and T X Barber reported that most of a group of extremely high hypnotizables who they termed "fantasizers". The fantasizers exhibited a cluster of traits consisting of: 1) fantasizing much of the time, 2) reporting their imagery was as vivid as real perceptions, 3) having physical responses to their imagery, 4) having an earlier than average age for first childhood memory, 5) recalling "imaginary playmates" from childhood, and 6) having grown up with parents who encouraged imaginative play. In 1991, Deirdre Barrett examined a larger group of extremely high hypnotizables and confirmed that about 60% fit Barber and Wilson's characterization of fantasizers while 40% were what she termed "dissociaters" who: 1) experienced daydreaming mostly as "spacing out" and not remembering what had been going on for periods of time, 2) had later than average ages for first memories, and 3) had parents who had been harshly punitive and/or who had experienced other childhood traumas. Fantasizers tended to experience hypnosis as being much like other imaginative activities while dissociaters reported it was unlike anything they'd ever experienced.

I admit I relate to the "fantasizer" profile. I do fantasize a lot, have a vivid imagination and have physical responses to imagery, e.g. I laugh out loud when reading something funny or cringe when thinking about something uncomfortable.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2019, 11:18:03 AM »
Has anyone here used psychedelics? I notice when talking to people who have used psychedelics that they don't seem to use them for long periods of time. Unlike cocaine, alcohol, opiates, cannabis, and amphetamines, I haven't talked to anyone who has used them throughout adulthood. People seem to use psychedelics for a period of time and then give them up. One person told me LSD last too long and with her kids around she can't trip for twelve hours.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Offline Cavebear

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2019, 11:55:22 AM »
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Has anyone here used psychedelics? I notice when talking to people who have used psychedelics that they don't seem to use them for long periods of time. Unlike cocaine, alcohol, opiates, cannabis, and amphetamines, I haven't talked to anyone who has used them throughout adulthood. People seem to use psychedelics for a period of time and then give them up. One person told me LSD last too long and with her kids around she can't trip for twelve hours.

Grass, alcohol, hash (a couple times), white crosses at work (really "speeded" up stocking the auto dept shelves with antifreeze and oil).  Not anything else.  Especially not LSD.  My mind plays with unreality as it is.

I will say that, after a hash/bong session in college, I leaned against a wall saying goodnight to my friends and the wall was a couple feet farther away than I thought.  My friends said I just fell on it.  *I* say, I spent a good half hour drifting quietly down toward a verdant valley and fell softly to the earth.  Ah the earth.  Like wildfire it was, dreaming softly of the fall but was it it a fall at all or rather a slow understanding of the stars ah, the stars, bright pinpoints of light, so sparkley and both dim and bright while I considered the meaning of the universe in the glory, oh the glory which I had never understood before but in the understanding, not understanding for it was too powerful, and yes she said and yes I said and we both said yes under the moonlight...

You get it, right?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Psychedelics and spiritual experiences
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2019, 03:01:20 PM »
"My mind plays with unreality as it is." ... you actually pretty stable since you arrived here.  Egomaniac, curmudgeon sure, but nothing really psycho.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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