Hi

[Arik]

Some people only kvetch others only kibitz.  Like the old guys in the Sesame St balcony.

I just find difficult to believe Baruch.

After some million of years in individual evolution from matter to cells or whatever was the first form of life and up to plants, animal to when they finally reach the human stage now they pretend that their consciousness pop up in some mysterious way and their life and evolution end all of a sudden with their physical death without having to reach any goal or destination.

Just when they are close to the arrival or finishing line they just say...........who cares.......

[Baruch]

I just find difficult to believe Baruch.

After some million of years in individual evolution from matter to cells or whatever was the first form of life and up to plants, animal to when they finally reach the human stage now they pretend that their consciousness pop up in some mysterious way and their life and evolution end all of a sudden with their physical death without having to reach any goal or destination.

Just when they are close to the arrival or finishing line they just say...........who cares.......

1st World disassociation of personality.

[Arik]

1st World disassociation of personality.

What is most bizarre in all this is that these guys are still totally convinced that science back them up when in reality science contradict them all the way.

Energy can not be destroyed but of course for them energy and consciousness are two different things.
Just incredible.

[Baruch]

What is most bizarre in all this is that these guys are still totally convinced that science back them up when in reality science contradict them all the way.

Energy can not be destroyed but of course for them energy and consciousness are two different things.
Just incredible.

Physicalism: chess is made up of a board and two sets of pieces
Consciousness: a particular sequence of arrangement of pieces produced by two opposing players

But, but ... it is still made up of the board and the pieces ... So!

The position of the pieces is the result of pseudo-random movements ... tell that to Bobby Fischer and Boris Spassky!  The pseudo-random part is only ... not all arrangements of pieces can be arrived at by legal play ... the pieces' movements are limited by rules, by the obstruction of your own pieces, by the obstruction of the opponents pieces and by the taking of pieces off the board during play.  Moreover aside from all of that, that only describes all legal arrangements.  It doesn't explain the sequence of play.  The sequence of play is also determined by the strategies of the opposing players, which is dynamic during the game.  The missing element in physicalism is the will, the senses, the living presence of the players.

Reductionism is useful in some circumstances, but it is self limiting, it isn't a panacea.  No mental process is.

[Blackleaf]

What is most bizarre in all this is that these guys are still totally convinced that science back them up when in reality science contradict them all the way.

Energy can not be destroyed but of course for them energy and consciousness are two different things.
Just incredible.

Energy can't be destroyed, but it can change forms. What you're proposing by saying that the consciousness must survive the death of of the brain is like saying the image on a TV screen must continue to exist after you break it. That's not how reality works. Also, if you want to claim that the soul is a physical thing made of actual energy, then that means it can be observed and measured. So...show us where this soul energy is and accept your Nobel Peace Prize.

[Baruch]

Energy can't be destroyed, but it can change forms. What you're proposing by saying that the consciousness must survive the death of of the brain is like saying the image on a TV screen must continue to exist after you break it. That's not how reality works. Also, if you want to claim that the soul is a physical thing made of actual energy, then that means it can be observed and measured. So...show us where this soul energy is and accept your Nobel Peace Prize.

Energy is the carrier.  As the plastic is the carrier of the chess pieces.  But plastic isn't the content of the chess pieces, that is the symbolic information represented by their shapes.  A pawn is not a queen.  Abstractly, consciousness is a physically embodied form of information.  Actual randomness, has zero information and maximum entropy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfffy12uQ7g

Some have tried to used this in physics, that information is fundamental, not mass-energy, not space-time.

A side point ... the utopianism of communism (and progressivism in general) is belief in a self-licking ice-cream cone.  Namely a perfect engine (per Carnot) ... a perfect steam engine in the case of Marx's time.  The idea is prevalent in capitalism and communism, that with progress, while there isn't a free lunch yet, with technical progress, there will be a free lunch any day now.  Marx wasn't competent at physics.  All we have is predation, if you want more food energy to keep your body engine going, you have to either grow food, or steal it from farmers.  Capitalism grows food.  Communism steals it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGlDsFAOWXc

A simple heat engine that is easy to understand.  Why isn't it perfectly efficient?  Because it can't be completely isolated from its surroundings.  Even if put into the vacuum of space, it is losing energy (and gaining entropy) by infrared radiation leaving it (because it has a temperature).  Well then, we can improve by lowering the temperature, thus lowing the infrared radiation loss, right?  No dice.  This is why you can't get to absolute zero temperature.  Even empty space isn't at absolute zero, because of the quantum flux of the naked vacuum, which can also be measured ... the Casimir Effect.  That is why you can't have a perpetual motion machine.

[Arik]

Energy can't be destroyed, but it can change forms. What you're proposing by saying that the consciousness must survive the death of of the brain is like saying the image on a TV screen must continue to exist after you break it. That's not how reality works. Also, if you want to claim that the soul is a physical thing made of actual energy, then that means it can be observed and measured. So...show us where this soul energy is and accept your Nobel Peace Prize.

Your problem BL is that you do not know how evolution works along with materialists so you make a hell of a confusion.

But let us see your comment.

1) You say...............Energy can't be destroyed, but it can change forms......................

Who ever said that energy doesn't change?
Not me BL.

Obviously as consciousness that by the way is also energy gain in awareness through the evolution process she (rather than it) is bound to change form.
If that wouldn't be the case then matter would stay matter, plants stay plants and so animals and human stay what they are and of course matter wouldn't turn in anything else in the first place.

Have you ever seem a creeper moving and moving in search of something?
That is all about evolution of the consciousness.
That consciousness is not happy to stay were she is.
Exactly the same as animals and humans.
There is a force that tell to those consciousness.............GO AHEAD......GO AHEAD......... so the awareness increase in a never end effort to go higher and higher.


2) You say.............. What you're proposing by saying that the consciousness must survive the death of of the brain is like saying the image on a TV screen must continue to exist after you break it. That's not how reality works......................


More confusion BL.
Evolution of the consciousness is not the same in everyone and everything so your idea that you can compare a human consciousness with one that is millions times less evolved such as an image doesn't make much sense at all however is also true that if one manage to exist also the other must manage to exist but with a difference BL.
While an evolved consciousness such as the one of a human present a more complex level of awareness and therefore is likely to keep her form the other is in a latent stage of awareness so her form is almost impossible for us human to identify once she change but again according to my beliefs even a human consciousness due to her bad karma can turn into something less evolved such as matter, plant or animal.


3) You say..........Also, if you want to claim that the soul is a physical thing made of actual energy, then that means it can be observed and measured. So...show us where this soul energy is and accept your Nobel Peace Prize..........

Once again you pop up with remarks that I never claimed.

Who ever said that the soul is something physical?
Not me BL.
I instead said that energy and consciousness are but the two sides of the same sheet so one can not exist without the other.

And who said that energy can be observed?
To do that you must be a very very advanced human being very similar to God.
Normal people can not observe energy.
They however can measure energy with some instruments.
Most people who had a real NDE could do that once outside their bodies but most people can not.

[trdsf]

Energy can't be destroyed, but it can change forms. What you're proposing by saying that the consciousness must survive the death of of the brain is like saying the image on a TV screen must continue to exist after you break it. That's not how reality works. Also, if you want to claim that the soul is a physical thing made of actual energy, then that means it can be observed and measured. So...show us where this soul energy is and accept your Nobel Peace Prize.

Or Physics, or the Physiology or Medicine prize.  Or all three at the same time.

Fortunately, we live in a world where data overrides assertion.  Otherwise, I should have a Nobel for asserting that there are other alien intelligences in this galaxy â€" and with a damn sight better reasoning and rationale than this magical soul balderdash.

[Baruch]

Or Physics, or the Physiology or Medicine prize.  Or all three at the same time.

Fortunately, we live in a world where data overrides assertion.  Otherwise, I should have a Nobel for asserting that there are other alien intelligences in this galaxy â€" and with a damn sight better reasoning and rationale than this magical soul balderdash.

But your assertion is no more valid than his, simply of a different conclusion.  My post above gave facts.  People here only select the one's they agree with, like a Bible thumper.

[Arik]

But your assertion is no more valid than his, simply of a different conclusion.  My post above gave facts.  People here only select the one's they agree with, like a Bible thumper.

The guy is convinced that today data is the real data.

He doesn't realize that in this universe everything move and change so obviously what was true yesterday is cast in the rubbish bin of history today and tomorrow a new data will pop up deceiving the gullible into believing that this new data is the ultimate truth.

Materialists are stuck in material reality but that reality is not even close to the real reality so they keep on searching in the wrong place for the ultimate reality saying..................we still do not know but surely science will find out.........

Surely science can give a correct answer.
The problem however is that we also need the proper science which by the way is not what they think it is because physical science is called physical for a reason.

The real truth is outside the physical arena but materialists still ignore this important factor by burying their head on the sand.

[Arik]

Sometime searching can produce results however although these results may be interesting they may not be all positive.

[Unbeliever]

The real truth is outside the physical arena

And exactly how is it that you know this?

[Baruch]

And exactly how is it that you know this?

How do you know it is not?  Dividing things into physical and non-physical is convention ... like what side of the road you drive on.

[Cavebear]

Truth is evidence that can be shown to others by means of shared information or logical discussion.

Faith is unsupported by evidence, and depends on a superiority of trust over evidence.

Theism is faith-based.  There is no evidence for it in any factual basis.

Isn't it strange that all faith-based ideas have NO evidential basis?  Wouldn't you think that, at some time, a fact would have SLIPPED in somewhere?

I do not pay attention to anything not fact-based...

[Baruch]

Truth is evidence that can be shown to others by means of shared information or logical discussion.

Faith is unsupported by evidence, and depends on a superiority of trust over evidence.

Theism is faith-based.  There is no evidence for it in any factual basis.

Isn't it strange that all faith-based ideas have NO evidential basis?  Wouldn't you think that, at some time, a fact would have SLIPPED in somewhere?

I do not pay attention to anything not fact-based...

Only if you are triggered left wing professors working on the public dole ;-)