CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION

[Cavebear]

But Moby Dickers rarely burn anyone at the stake for refusing to believe in the Great White Whale.

True, the Ahabs self-eliminate.  Rather considerate of them.  Its the ones who other-eliminate than cause me grief. 

[Cavebear]

I hope Marx did not think that the Civil War was about freeing the slaves?  When Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation entire Union regiments deserted.  They had signed up to preserve the union, not to end slavery.

"When Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation entire Union regiments deserted"...  References please? 

I agree that freeing the slaves was not initially the Union goal, and many union soldiers were quite biased against slaves, but I'm reasonably well-read about the Civil War and regiments deserting for any reason was pretty unlikely. 

[Cavebear]

Remarkably close to Robert E. Lee's opinion.

Regarding Lincoln's views on equality of Black slaves and Whites:

""I believe the declara[tion] that 'all men are created equal' is the great fundamental principle upon which our free institutions rest; that negro slavery is violative of that principle; but that, by our frame of government, that principle has not been made one of legal obligation; that by our frame of government, the States which have slavery are to retain it, or surrender it at their own pleasure; and that all others---individuals, free-states and national government---are constitutionally bound to leave them alone about it. I believe our government was thus framed because of the necessity springing from the actual presence of slavery, when it was framed. That such necessity does not exist in the teritories[sic], where slavery is not present." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Letter to James N. Brown" (October 18, 1858), p. 327. "

[Minimalist]

Lincoln, ever the pragmatist.

If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.

Lincoln, letter to Horace Greeley, Aug. 1862

[Cavebear]

Lincoln, ever the pragmatist.

Yes, he would have.  His singular goal as President was to preserve the Union.  But his personal feelings were that all people were created equal.

If he believed that Blacks were inferior, he would not have expressed his desire to free them.  Would he have expressed a thought that horses should be freed as equals?  His younger experiences included observations that Blacks were fully human and improperly enslaved. 

I invite your attention to this link.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lincoln-and-lees-views-on-slavery/

Lincoln often referenced "All men are created equal".   He was a member of a political party that considered that that idea included Blacks.  It seems reasonable to conclude from his early and later actions that he held to those beliefs. 

It is hard to separate the language of the time from the beliefs of individuals.  And it is hard for politicians to speak their beliefs straight-forwardly sometimes.  Sometimes you had (and still do) have speak the language of the voters.  Guessing true thoughts of people before us using the language of the time can be very complicated. 

[Minimalist]

Agreed.  But the men who answered the call of this type of recruiting poster in October, 1861 ( in the aftermath of First Manassas ) were not called to free slaves but to save the union.  Lincoln understood that.  Remember that he got less than 40% of the vote in 1860.  His position was shaky.

[Cavebear]

Agreed.  But the men who answered the call of this type of recruiting poster in October, 1861 ( in the aftermath of First Manassas ) were not called to free slaves but to save the union.  Lincoln understood that.  Remember that he got less than 40% of the vote in 1860.  His position was shaky.

OK; Look when I say Lincoln agreed that slaves were people and some Union soldiers didn't agree, you can't then call me out suggesting  I wasn't saying that.  I totally agree that many northerners either didn't care all to much about slavery or didn't know much about it.

It took some time...

But what I asked you for were references about your claim that entire union regiments deserted over the issue.  If you have them, fine, and I will learn something new.  But if you don't, just say so and we will go on from there. 

Hey, sometimes I discover I've made a statement I couldn't support through evidence, and I learn from THAT too.  That doesn't even mean the statement was incorrect, just not very evidential.

But please do respect a request for evidence and acknowledge if it is hard to provide.

[Baruch]

Regarding Lincoln's views on equality of Black slaves and Whites:

""I believe the declara[tion] that 'all men are created equal' is the great fundamental principle upon which our free institutions rest; that negro slavery is violative of that principle; but that, by our frame of government, that principle has not been made one of legal obligation; that by our frame of government, the States which have slavery are to retain it, or surrender it at their own pleasure; and that all others---individuals, free-states and national government---are constitutionally bound to leave them alone about it. I believe our government was thus framed because of the necessity springing from the actual presence of slavery, when it was framed. That such necessity does not exist in the teritories[sic], where slavery is not present." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Letter to James N. Brown" (October 18, 1858), p. 327. "

But careful to not repeat fake Lincoln quotes, put in his mouth to meet Republican party ideology.  I think you are quoting the real thing.

https://www.truthorfiction.com/abraham-lincoln-quote-about-capitalism-and-corruption/

[Baruch]

True, the Ahabs self-eliminate.  Rather considerate of them.  Its the ones who other-eliminate than cause me grief.

Ahab got his whole ship sunk.  He was other-eliminator.

[Baruch]

"When Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation entire Union regiments deserted"...  References please? 

I agree that freeing the slaves was not initially the Union goal, and many union soldiers were quite biased against slaves, but I'm reasonably well-read about the Civil War and regiments deserting for any reason was pretty unlikely.

I agree with you.  Usually Union troops were unruly because of the bad food ;-)

[Baruch]

Yes, he would have.  His singular goal as President was to preserve the Union.  But his personal feelings were that all people were created equal.

If he believed that Blacks were inferior, he would not have expressed his desire to free them.  Would he have expressed a thought that horses should be freed as equals?  His younger experiences included observations that Blacks were fully human and improperly enslaved. 

I invite your attention to this link.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lincoln-and-lees-views-on-slavery/

Lincoln often referenced "All men are created equal".   He was a member of a political party that considered that that idea included Blacks.  It seems reasonable to conclude from his early and later actions that he held to those beliefs. 

It is hard to separate the language of the time from the beliefs of individuals.  And it is hard for politicians to speak their beliefs straight-forwardly sometimes.  Sometimes you had (and still do) have speak the language of the voters.  Guessing true thoughts of people before us using the language of the time can be very complicated.

Lincoln initially wanted to ship the freed slaves to Liberia, our original African colony.  Frederick Douglass dissuaded him.  Different African-American leaders down the decades, have come down on both sides of this issue ... should African-Americans bother remaining American?

[Minimalist]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/128th_Illinois_Infantry_Regiment


The 128th Illinois is probably the best known example.  Obviously, the army had a deep seated desire to cover the story up.  Then there was this in which the issue was shoehorned into a story about other reasons for desertion.  I'm surprised they didn't mention army chow as a cause.

http://civilwardailygazette.com/lincoln-grants-temporary-amnest-to-deserters/

Actually, the most in depth discussion I ever saw of it was in Ken Burns' The Civil War.  But its nine hours long and I don't have the time to go looking through it to give you chapter and verse. 

[Baruch]

Enlistment terms were strange then as during the American Revolution.  Amazing to fight a war on such amateur terms.  The other strange aspect was popular election of regimental officers.  It worked for Grant, but probably not for many others.  Men wanted to serve with men they knew, from their hometown, not West Point grads.

[Cavebear]

I read something about soldier-choice of officers once.  Years ago in a newspaper article.

I've thought about that.  It seems to me that, since most units had little control over where they went or where they fought on command from above, their field commanders weren't the ones deciding where or when they fought. 

So, the most logical thing was for them to actually choose among themselves a group leader who inspired them to go charging insanely into a hailstorm of bullets by example.  Utterly insane, of course, but you did what you did according to the thoughts of the time. 

[Baruch]

I read something about soldier-choice of officers once.  Years ago in a newspaper article.

I've thought about that.  It seems to me that, since most units had little control over where they went or where they fought on command from above, their field commanders weren't the ones deciding where or when they fought. 

So, the most logical thing was for them to actually choose among themselves a group leader who inspired them to go charging insanely into a hailstorm of bullets by example.  Utterly insane, of course, but you did what you did according to the thoughts of the time.

It was very democratic.  In ancient Athens, there were 10 generals, all elected to office.  The Spartans were professionals however.