Author Topic: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION  (Read 1003 times)

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2018, 11:58:55 AM »
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But what is the actual "evidence" that Crossan uses?  From a review I read its the same old epistles, Book of Acts, church tradition horseshit with a new spin. 

I suggest Richard Carrier's "On The Historicity of Jesus" as a less reverential discussion of this stuff.  The evidence for any single person named "paul" is as weak as that for any earthly "jesus."  I find this fact compelling even if jesus freaks run screaming from the room.
I agree--Carrier's work is the best in the field.  And I hope somebody on the christian side would take up Carrier's challenge--use the same rules of studying history as he does and show how Jesus could be/is a real person.  That will never happen, of course.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2018, 12:00:56 PM »
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Well, none of the biblical books were written "at the time" of course.  So they are all fake.  They are just what some religious fanatics THOUGHT the people they imagined as apostles would say.  And, none of that stuff would be real at any time. 

I always expect that anything claimed as a miracle is false simply because is offends the laws of physics or some other currently-understood facts.
Isn't a miracle simply the religious way of saying--I don't know how that works!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2018, 12:22:05 PM »
Most books are not written at the time, of course.  The difference is that books which purport to present facts tend to give their sources for those facts.  How different are the so-called gospels?

We do not have 4 gospels.  We have one.  Mark.  The next two are fan fics in modern parlance.  Merely expansions of the original.  Then there is John which is a total re-write of the original because obviously the author of "john" was embarrassed that Mark portrayed his hero godboy as some sort of mealy mouthed pussy.
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2018, 12:40:00 PM »
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Nah, not the same.  And I don't see much about Giant Robot Movies.  I will grant Munch his "gay times".  And political dysfunction is about the same as religious dysfunction.

And you don't have to spout religious intolerance.  A calm cool refutation of all superstitions will do just fine. 

Cavey

Democrats = BS
Republicans = BS

OK?  Secular superstitions.  Free lunch for certain folks, who vote for me.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2018, 12:41:58 PM »
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But what is the actual "evidence" that Crossan uses?  From a review I read its the same old epistles, Book of Acts, church tradition horseshit with a new spin. 

I suggest Richard Carrier's "On The Historicity of Jesus" as a less reverential discussion of this stuff.  The evidence for any single person named "paul" is as weak as that for any earthly "jesus."  I find this fact compelling even if jesus freaks run screaming from the room.

Read the book.  Archeology shows what was going on.  Not what Marxists project into the past with their magical dialectical materialism.

Or you can say, as I do, that history is bunk.  Unless you can personally interview George Washington and cross examine him under enhanced interrogation ... you have nothing.  Maximalist vs minimalist.  But either way, propaganda for some agenda or other.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2018, 12:42:55 PM »
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Well, none of the biblical books were written "at the time" of course.  So they are all fake.  They are just what some religious fanatics THOUGHT the people they imagined as apostles would say.  And, none of that stuff would be real at any time. 

I always expect that anything claimed as a miracle is false simply because is offends the laws of physics or some other currently-understood facts.

Same as all JFK assassination books.  They weren't written in 1963 ... so they are all false.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2018, 12:45:23 PM »
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Isn't a miracle simply the religious way of saying--I don't know how that works!

Materialists put words in spiritualist mouths, even when spiritualists don't already put their own foot in their own mouths ;-)

Nobody here, except maybe Pops and I know what "miracle" means.  And that is OK, y'all don't have to.

There is the bottom up view of reality, and the top down view of reality.  They are both true, and contradict each other.  Baruch Spinoza understood this.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2018, 12:47:43 PM »
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Most books are not written at the time, of course.  The difference is that books which purport to present facts tend to give their sources for those facts.  How different are the so-called gospels?

We do not have 4 gospels.  We have one.  Mark.  The next two are fan fics in modern parlance.  Merely expansions of the original.  Then there is John which is a total re-write of the original because obviously the author of "john" was embarrassed that Mark portrayed his hero godboy as some sort of mealy mouthed pussy.

None of the gospels are original or contemporary.  They are evangelical novellas ... to recruit gentiles and Hellenized Jews.  This period lasted until about 135 CE, when the last of the Messianic Jews and the Hellenized Jews were wiped out by the Romans.  Paul was the cross-over ;-) ... both messianic and Hellenized.  His group survived better, because it was pro-Roman from the beginning.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2018, 12:54:08 PM »
What is what?

Gospels are fictional, are religious novellas, as were popular at the time, but usually in pagan terms.  Recruitment propaganda.  Maccabean literature did that for Jewish folk.

Epistles are edited and sometimes invented, as church to church communications ... but also sometimes whole sermons.  Romans and Hebrews are sermons.  Revelations on the other hand is an LSD trip.  They did have hallucinogens back then.

The original scripture was the Septuagint ... the Greek OT.  Then Paul's epistles were added along with other miscellany.  The gospels/acts were written last.  This was a whole industry by gnostic groups; pagan, Jewish and Christian.

If you want to see the original inspiration, as it is being made, read the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary.  These are fictions, but they describe the gnostic process.  This process may have included fasting, meditation, sleep deprivation and other austerities, and hallucinogens.

The disciples (of all new sects) were the hippies of their age.  Peace bro.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 12:56:53 PM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2018, 12:58:40 PM »
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None of the gospels are original or contemporary.  They are evangelical novellas ... to recruit gentiles and Hellenized Jews.  This period lasted until about 135 CE, when the last of the Messianic Jews and the Hellenized Jews were wiped out by the Romans.  Paul was the cross-over ;-) ... both messianic and Hellenized.  His group survived better, because it was pro-Roman from the beginning.


Try telling that to the fundies.  Those fuckers think people were taking dictation from fucking jesus!
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2018, 01:02:49 PM »
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Try telling that to the fundies.  Those fuckers think people were taking dictation from fucking jesus!

Find blind idiot on the street.  Push him into the middle of traffic.  Virtuous that.  You are much too used to fishing, by dropping dynamite into a barrel.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2018, 01:51:32 PM »
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But what is the actual "evidence" that Crossan uses?  From a review I read its the same old epistles, Book of Acts, church tradition horseshit with a new spin. 

I suggest Richard Carrier's "On The Historicity of Jesus" as a less reverential discussion of this stuff.  The evidence for any single person named "paul" is as weak as that for any earthly "jesus."  I find this fact compelling even if jesus freaks run screaming from the room.

What I find interesting about "the apostle" Paul is how much he directly contradicted what Jesus taught.

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This is just one site I picked, there are many others.
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"Theism tells men that they are slaves of a God. Atheism assures men that they are the investigators and users of nature."
E. Haldeman-Julius

Offline Cavebear

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2018, 02:01:52 PM »
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Isn't a miracle simply the religious way of saying--I don't know how that works!

Actually, "no".  The religious claim to really know how a miracle works.  Caused By God!  They never say "I don't know how that works".  They say "God Did It".
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2018, 02:02:59 PM »
OK, but the word "God" is just a sound some people make when they mean "I don't know."
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"Theism tells men that they are slaves of a God. Atheism assures men that they are the investigators and users of nature."
E. Haldeman-Julius

Offline Cavebear

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2018, 02:49:21 PM »
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OK, but the word "God" is just a sound some people make when they mean "I don't know."

Oh yeah?  Try to get them to not capitalize the word...

And also, I once drove some Islamists nuts trying to differentiate the word for a Roman "god" and "Allah" in English and Arabic. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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