Author Topic: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION  (Read 1026 times)



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Seven of today's most controversial Bible scholars reveal their shocking conclusions about the origins of Christianity. Based on the best-selling religious studies book by Joseph Atwill, this documentary shows that Jesus is not a historical figure, the events of Jesus' life were based on a Roman military campaign, his supposed second coming refers to a historical event that already occurred, the teachings of Christ came from the ancient pagan mystery schools, and the Gospels were written by a family of Caesars and their supporters, who left us documents to prove it.

Dissecting the history and literature of this time, the scholars show that the Gospels are a sophisticated pro-Roman multi-layered allegorical text that could not have been written by simple Jewish fishermen. Noting that the history officially provided by the Church does not hold up to rigorous scrutiny, the scholars agree that Christianity was used as a political tool to control the masses of the day, and is still being used this way today.
Much like the ancient era from which Christianity emerged, we are currently on the brink of an immense paradigm shift, and studying this history can help us understand modern-day politics, and give us the much-needed perspective for coming up with solutions to today's problems, in order to create the better world that we envision.

Featured scholars are Joseph Atwill, Robert Eisenman, John Hudson, Kenneth Humphreys, Rod Blackhirst, Acharya S / D.M. Murdock, and Timothy Freke.








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This really makes sense to me, and I want to believe it, but of course, the things I want to believe are exactly those things I must be the most skeptical of.




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"The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish."
Robert Jackson, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court (1941–1954)

This is the type of material that I like to think is correct.  But I too, have to remain skeptical.  I don't think Acharya S is noted for being all that accurate.  I have not read any of Atwill, so I have another task for myself.  If this material is compared to Carrier, I think it makes it another nail in the Jesus is a myth coffin. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

I had the book years ago, and read it tw0 or three times, but I don't have it any more. I'd like to find another copy, or even an updated version, if there is one.
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"The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish."
Robert Jackson, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court (1941–1954)

Atwill is a crack pot.

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Atwill is the one dude I get asked about most often.
  • And now apparently even Dawkins is tweeting about Atwill, thanks to his upcoming venture into England later this month to sell his weird Roman Conspiracy variety of Jesus mythicism. To get the gist you can check out his PR puff piece. Thomas Verenna has already written a deconstruction of that. Notably even Acharya S (D.M. Murdock) doesn’t buy Atwill’s thesis, declaring that she does “not concur with Atwill’s Josephus/Flavian thesis” and that “the Flavians, including Josephus, did not compose the canonical gospels as we have them.” Robert Price has similarly soundly debunked his book, even after strongly wanting to like it.
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

Christianity arose out of Roman society, at least one corner of it.  It didn't arise in Chinese society.  So in that sense it is very Roman.  And from Constantine onward to Theodosius ... it was very much a political and imperial project.  Ditto official Christianity at that time in Armenia and in Ethiopia.  Which is to say, once the meme has been created and is being successfully circulated in society ... we have documentation on that.

What made it a meme and who actually originated it, is less clear, but for me Paul was responsible.  And as a bit of a salesman, as he is portrayed in Last Temptation of Christ.

Where this Caesar's Messiah actually fits, is in the invention of rabbinic Judaism, not pre-Constantine Christianity ... that the authors don't address.

So where did Paul and his competitors get their inspiration?  Kabbalah.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Of course the evidence for this "paul" character is pretty slim, too.

No, Atwill has a silly theory.  He imagines that because there are jews today that he can make a shitload of money selling this preposterous story uh, I mean, telling a yarn so silly that idiots will fall for it.

Among other things the notion that the Romans would have given a shit about the "jews" in 70 AD is laughable.  They had just crushed the Great Revolt in the old fashioned Roman way.... and they were still wiping the blood off their swords.  The "Jews" were not a problem for Vespasian, the newly victorious emperor.  He inherited an empire that was bankrupt, its capital had been burned in the final battle and which faced revolts from Civilis in Germany and Vindex in Gaul.  Yet, with all that to deal with, Atwill would have us believe that Vespasian, who btw, had no extensive background in Syrian/Judean affairs, nonethless was more worried about a potential rising of a nation he had just crushed.

It makes no fucking sense.
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

I happen to agree, that the Flavians weren't that brilliant.  Vespasian was a mule driver, Titus was a fop, and Domitian was mad.

The Paul of the Church of course, isn't the real Paul.  Part of the Epistles aren't his, and the remainder are edited.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

And let's not forget that no one seems to have heard of this paul guy until after Marcion created the first xtian canon.  But Marcion was a heretic so how can that be?

The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

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And let's not forget that no one seems to have heard of this paul guy until after Marcion created the first xtian canon.  But Marcion was a heretic so how can that be?

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Marcion was closest to the original Pauline church of course ...

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Paulinism and Johannine church were both gnostic, as was Marcionism.

The idea that Paul was ever acceptable to the Jewish Church in Jerusalem is laughable of course.

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The books by Robert Eisenman show the tie-in between Jewish Gnosticism (Dead Sea Scrolls) and the early Christian movement.

Nearly full copies of the Pauline corpus date to around 200 CE, 150 years after Paul.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

The muratonian fragment dates anywhere from the late 2d to the 4th century AD - hardly evidence of much of anything.

"Papias" writings, if they ever existed, have vanished and we know of him only through some alleged transcriptions by later writers.  One of whom, Eusebius, was famed for stretching the truth.  Later xtians created any number of legendary figures to connect their doctrines back to the so-called "apostles."

We do know for certain that Justin writing c 160 in an apology addressed to the Emperor Antoninus Pius never heard of anybody named Paul.  This is odd because he does refer to Marcion, Paul's "publicist" if you like.  For that matter, Justin does not refer to any of the so-called "gospels" either.  He does refer to something called the "Memoirs of the Apostles" but these references do not match up to any of the gospels currently in use.

And, for the record, while some Greco-Roman writers make mention of xtians, no one until Celsus writing c 180 AD ever mentions anyone named "jesus" either.  Apparently, he was a fairly late addition to the tale!
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2018, 11:57:13 AM »
Again, mostly correct.  If you go by actual physical manuscripts, and take the minimal view (nearly complete copies) vs the maximal view (smallest early fragment implies complete version (as found later) existed at the earlier date) ... there was little that existed before approximately 200 CE.  And none of the manuscripts or fragments are original, they are all copies.  Really good manuscripts in quantity are limited before 400 CE even.  And those all show some scribal variations.

So ... the whole Protestant thing of relying on the Bible ... is of limited value.  I think the Catholic/Orthodox folks knew this back in Constantine's day, hence the reliance on bishops to determine truth, not scriptures.  With Constantine, all the clergy became civil servants in the Roman Empire, and Sunday became the official day of rest.  That wasn't so, back when this was all Jewish and the Gentiles hadn't mutated it to their own purposes.  Shabbat was still a sabbath, they added an additional Solar/Pythagorean worship at dawn on Sunday.  At Alexandria Troas, Paul was preaching at Havdalah service ... just before sundown on a Saturday.  Shabbat runs from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2018, 01:27:57 PM »
I used to listen on Sunday mornings to a program on KGO called God Talk, with Brent Walters:

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He is a professor of religion at San Jose State. And he owns one of the country's largest private collections of religious books and papers with some of the earliest biblical sources ever discovered. For this, he has been called a heretic.

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Every week he'd talk about early Christian history - but I've since forgotten most of it.
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"The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish."
Robert Jackson, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court (1941–1954)

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2018, 03:41:42 PM »
There are precious few historical markers in any of the writings of this so-called pauline corpus. 

One that there is 2 Corinthians 11

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32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me.

Xtians twist their scrotums into a pretzel trying to insist that the Aretas in this line is Aretas the 4th who is last seen in history fleeing the armies of Lucius Vitellius the Imperial Legate of Syria in 37 AD after foolishly attacking Herod Antipas, a Roman ally.  Aretas IV died in 40 surviving that long only because Tiberius died and Vitellius decided to wait for further orders from Caligula.  Vitellius' main job was to keep an eye on the Parthians, not to clean up some shithole in the desert, and if the Parthians were going to try anything it would be during the confusion brought on by the death of the emperor. 

What is interesting here is that Josephus reports that Aretas III also of Nabatea did take control of Damascus and held it for 20 years.  The problem for jesus freaks is that those 20 years were between 84 and 64 BC which doesn't do any of this jesus shit a whole lot of good, does it?  In 64 BC, Gnaeus Pompeius and his legions came rolling through the region and it was he who took Damascus from Aretas III and no Roman historian subsequently mentions that the Romans ever gave Damascus to anyone. 

I have never run into any xtian apologist who is willing to tackle this anomaly.  They all act as if I am suddenly speaking Greek!
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2018, 04:02:53 PM »
Unbeliever - SFgate article mentions the Didache in the first paragraph.  This document is crucial for early Jewish Christianity.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2018, 04:47:03 PM »
Another completely anonymous writing. Some considered it canonical, others rejected it. Some scholars think it was late second century, others that it was first century.

What do you make of it?
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"The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish."
Robert Jackson, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court (1941–1954)

 

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