So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm

Started by Minimalist, December 13, 2018, 07:21:51 PM

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trdsf

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on September 08, 2019, 02:18:26 AM
I also don't see how or why they should would hold and justify a second referendum. And even then, I am not certain the results would be different. They could be, people have since changed their minds. It might be done, mind you. But I would not go for one as a politician.
Well, the point of the referendum is to vote on the real Brexit, not on the fairy dust and unicorn farts the Leave campaign ran onâ€"and then backtracked on the day after the vote.  If the UK wants to leave on the terms of the May deal, or on no deal at all, they should say so explicitly, but if the real Brexit is not what they want, they shouldn't be forced into it just because a bare majority in a non-binding referendum voted on the basis of the inaccurate information Leave handed out.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: trdsf on September 08, 2019, 03:59:10 PM
Well, the point of the referendum is to vote on the real Brexit, not on the fairy dust and unicorn farts the Leave campaign ran onâ€"and then backtracked on the day after the vote.  If the UK wants to leave on the terms of the May deal, or on no deal at all, they should say so explicitly, but if the real Brexit is not what they want, they shouldn't be forced into it just because a bare majority in a non-binding referendum voted on the basis of the inaccurate information Leave handed out.

But that's the point exactly. It was a non-binding referendum to start with. I think going out there as a politician and try to sell: 'we're going to set aside the last referendum and put up a new one, we'll promise we'll respect this one though', is political suicide.
And even if it falls one way or another, what are you going to do, have a third one to go best out of three? Or keep holding every five years to make sure it's still what the public wants?
I might very well be wrong, but I don't expect salvation from a second referendum, only more fodder for this ever-burning fire.
I also don't think the second referendum should be held for the same reason I don't believe the first should've been held. People elect politicians to know and do the smart things. It is not a perfect system, but I prefer a parliamentary democracy over a 'total' one. Simply because I realize I myself am ignorant about so many things one needs to know in order to make structurally sound governing choices. And I know this knowledge, and sometimes even more, is lacking in many fellow citizens. There might be a great deal of flemish and walloon citizens who want to see Belgium split up, butwe don't do that because the consequences calculated are horrible, even if their is a great body that feels principle matters more and who miscalculated the downside.
The first referendum was elected officials getting out of doing their duty and out of taking their responsibility. The second referendum would be the same cowardice spiel.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 08, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Like I said--like faux news, the more one watches and listens, the more stupid one becomes.

Is that how you became an idiot? (sarc) ... watching CNN and MSNBC?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Interested parties (blood sport unless you are British) ... will have to wait until EOD tomorrow at least.  The three court cases are endlessly alive against prorogation.  Initially two of them were defeated, but are now being appealed.  And the third, in the N Irish court, hasn't had its initial judgement yet.  Meanwhile, there is serious consideration by Tories to eventually challenge the legality of the Ben Law (the one just approved by House/Lords to tie the hands of the PM).  So it may all ultimately fall into the hand of the Judiciary, to clear up the disagreement between the Executive and Legislative.  I rather prefer the American system.  The Executive/Legislative in GB, you can hardly tell them apart.  And I don't think there is much clarity aside from tradition, if there is a dispute between the Monarch and the High Court.  There simply isn't any common law on it (assuming the Monarch wanted to nullify a Judicial decision).  It is pretty clear, the Monarch has no influence over either house of Parliament, since 1911.

Boris may resubmit the call for election on Monday, but defeat is certain.  Prorogation may be overturned on Monday by the N Irish court.  Boris says there won't be a legal challenge to the Ben Law until the day after the EU council meetings (Oct 17-18).  There may be additional sackings of Tories by Boris on Monday or additional resignations, because of Tories colluding with foreign powers (Germany etc .. the EU isn't a country yet).  If prorogation as is, holds ... then they will be out, Sept 10-Oct 13.  Parliament returning to business on Oct 14.  The Queen's Speech being set for Oct 14, the day they return.  At that point, all unfinished business prior to OCt 14 is moot, and anything done has to be added to the calendar as if new business.  Of course the "Forces of Darkness" could try to prevent the Queen's Speech.

Fun, fun for over 9 months now.  GB is very different from the US.  The accents are interesting, with large cast of heroes and villains.  I think the biggest question swill be ... who plays Jeremy and who plays Boris, in the mini-series version.  The Brits routinely do mini-series about recent politics.  They did it for the Falklands, and for the 2016 Brexit referendum.  I am hoping things will be mostly quiet for almost 5 weeks, so can spend time on other hobbies.

Here is the dramatized version of the original Brexit story ... starring Eggs Benedict ...

Brexit: The Uncivil War

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-YM8FnWZAU

Here is the real documentary ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or-tzhDLUqo

Boris' father has written a Brexit thriller.  Will Boris stay on script?

Which is more real?  The documentary, the Cumberbatch movie, or the novel?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on September 08, 2019, 05:52:04 PM
Is that how you became an idiot? (sarc) ... watching CNN and MSNBC?
You are quite like trump--if you say it, it is a lie.  Therefore, if you dislike CNN and MSNBC, then I know they are a good source for news.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

trdsf

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on September 08, 2019, 04:32:02 PM
But that's the point exactly. It was a non-binding referendum to start with. I think going out there as a politician and try to sell: 'we're going to set aside the last referendum and put up a new one, we'll promise we'll respect this one though', is political suicide.
And even if it falls one way or another, what are you going to do, have a third one to go best out of three? Or keep holding every five years to make sure it's still what the public wants?
I might very well be wrong, but I don't expect salvation from a second referendum, only more fodder for this ever-burning fire.
I also don't think the second referendum should be held for the same reason I don't believe the first should've been held. People elect politicians to know and do the smart things. It is not a perfect system, but I prefer a parliamentary democracy over a 'total' one. Simply because I realize I myself am ignorant about so many things one needs to know in order to make structurally sound governing choices. And I know this knowledge, and sometimes even more, is lacking in many fellow citizens. There might be a great deal of flemish and walloon citizens who want to see Belgium split up, butwe don't do that because the consequences calculated are horrible, even if their is a great body that feels principle matters more and who miscalculated the downside.
The first referendum was elected officials getting out of doing their duty and out of taking their responsibility. The second referendum would be the same cowardice spiel.
I don't know about 'salvation'.  And it's entirely possible that the result could be 'leave' anyway.  The point is that the Brexit that's on offer is in no way shape or form the Brexit that the Leave campaign said it would be.  Crashing out is not what the UK was told they were voting for.

Personally, I think it should be a ranked-choice vote with 'Leave with the May deal', 'Leave with no deal' and 'Remain' the options.  I'm sure none of those choices command an actual majority, so ranked choice will better identify the consensus of the electorate.  And I really don't know which way that vote would go.

I'll also be surprised if there's not a general election before the year's out, producing yet another coalition.  Whether it's Conservative/Brexit or Labour/LD/SNP/etc., again, there's just no way of knowing.  An election is a huge hail mary play for all parties, but everyone's boxed into it now.  The only difference of opinion is whether it should be before or after Oct 31.

Meanwhile, Stephen Fry and Pindex have some interesting things to think about re: why Brexitâ€"and particularly a no-deal Brexitâ€"is such a priority for the wealthy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HDFegpX5gI
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 08, 2019, 10:00:08 PM
You are quite like trump--if you say it, it is a lie.  Therefore, if you dislike CNN and MSNBC, then I know they are a good source for news.

Psycho, but I love you anyway.  Crazy people are cute, like AOC.

Politicians misrepresent/lie?  Of course.  Trillions of dollars are at stake.  Millions of lives are at stake.  What are a few misrepresentations among enemies?

So yes, Leave lied/Remain lied.  EU is a burning sack of shit.  Britain since 1910 has been a burning sack of shit.  More fun to point at some other country, not my own.

My best example of why not to allow any referenda ... an actual Leave description (a huge thing) would involve 1000s of pages of government technical gibberish.  Sure ... voters can tell from that what is true or false.  So both pro/for failed on the basis of not enough information.

On the other hand, even not being British, I would despise every German shit pile for the last 2100 years ;-(  The EU is yet another German shit pile ;-((  And don't even mention the warty Frogs!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

"Nearly All British Airways Flights Canceled As Pilots Union Goes On Strike" ... which political party supports unions?  Labor not Tories.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on September 09, 2019, 04:40:45 AM
Psycho, but I love you anyway.  Crazy people are cute, like AOC.

Politicians misrepresent/lie?  Of course.  Trillions of dollars are at stake.  Millions of lives are at stake.  What are a few misrepresentations among enemies?

So yes, Leave lied/Remain lied.  EU is a burning sack of shit.  Britain since 1910 has been a burning sack of shit.  More fun to point at some other country, not my own.

My best example of why not to allow any referenda ... an actual Leave description (a huge thing) would involve 1000s of pages of government technical gibberish.  Sure ... voters can tell from that what is true or false.  So both pro/for failed on the basis of not enough information.

On the other hand, even not being British, I would despise every German shit pile for the last 2100 years ;-(  The EU is yet another German shit pile ;-((  And don't even mention the warty Frogs!
I'm the psycho--yeah, sure....................looking in the mirror while you type still, I see.  You go hyperbole on everything, so you are the classic case of crying 'wolf' all the time.  You lie so much it is hard to figure out when you don't.  And you exaggerate so much (all the time) that you are impossible to take seriously.  And I'm the psycho.  Your god has done a good job of scrambling your brains.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 09, 2019, 11:33:32 AM
I'm the psycho--yeah, sure....................looking in the mirror while you type still, I see.  You go hyperbole on everything, so you are the classic case of crying 'wolf' all the time.  You lie so much it is hard to figure out when you don't.  And you exaggerate so much (all the time) that you are impossible to take seriously.  And I'm the psycho.  Your god has done a good job of scrambling your brains.

When one has no argument, one engages in name calling.  Are you are Froggy, Monsieur?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Bercow, Speaker of the House of Commons, announced his resignation.  Either today (if election passes) or 10/31/19.  He got a standing ovation from the Opposition bench, which is interesting since he is a Conservative.  The Speaker is not allowed to be partisan.  Twice this year he did all he could to help Labor.  Once back in the Spring and once last week.  Like the 21 Conservatives who got fired last week, and other Conservatives who have voluntarily resigned earlier this year, these were double agents for the Opposition bench (Labor or LibDem) or double agents from Führer Merkel, the Stazi leader of Communist Germany.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Just to be fun, the Opposition reminded the PM, that they have the power of both impeachment and attainder.  With attainder, he can be arrested and punished without trial.  How quaint our British cousins are ;-)  They forgot to mention drawing and quartering for treason, the dominant political policy in GB since 1992.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Baruch on September 09, 2019, 02:18:46 PM
When one has no argument, one engages in name calling.  Are you are Froggy, Monsieur?

Baruch, you call everybody dumb and stupid and brainwashed and call everything shit and psycho and suff like that. Call your conversational partners hypocrites and such like.
You keep saying Germans are shit. French people are frogs,  Europeans are morally bankrupt,...  Or other stuff, many loaded terms over the past few years. Can't glue which accusation to who anymore.

Rock. Glass house. You know?

One might even get offended by what you say, were one to put any value in your opinion.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on September 09, 2019, 02:18:46 PM
When one has no argument, one engages in name calling.  Are you are Froggy, Monsieur?
You call the shit you come up with are 'arguments'?  You are afraid of a real conversation. For a couple of years now, I have not read ANY arguments come from your shit filled fingers.  You simply like to look flashy--you have no substance.  Contrary--that is all you have.  You put up words that means nothing.  When it comes to ancient religion, you got it.  You have arguments.  Other than that, arguments are things you simply ignore.  I only say these things (waste my time) is because at one time you had my esteem.  I think deep disappoint has simply eaten what used to be a functioning mind---now it is just mush.  I'm sorry to say that.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on September 09, 2019, 02:32:06 PM
Baruch, you call everybody dumb and stupid and brainwashed and call everything shit and psycho and suff like that. Call your conversational partners hypocrites and such like.
You keep saying Germans are shit. French people are frogs,  Europeans are morally bankrupt,...  Or other stuff, many loaded terms over the past few years. Can't glue which accusation to who anymore.

Rock. Glass house. You know?

One might even get offended by what you say, were one to put any value in your opinion.
I'd give you two likes if I could.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?