So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm

Started by Minimalist, December 13, 2018, 07:21:51 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on August 01, 2019, 07:06:18 AM
Dream on.  You probably think the US and friends were good guys during the Cold War.  Pfft.

Cold War?  Yeah.  I was worried you were asking about WWII.  The Soviet Alliance was dicier.  Stalin was a real bastard (not actually suggesting anything about his Mother of course).
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Shiranu

Quote from: Cavebear on August 01, 2019, 08:19:49 AM
Cold War?  Yeah.  I was worried you were asking about WWII.  The Soviet Alliance was dicier.  Stalin was a real bastard (not actually suggesting anything about his Mother of course).

Just because we fought the bad guys doesn't make "us" the good guys (which is not to say there weren't good individuals fighting the Nazis).

Just look at Operation Paperclip, or even worse our deals with the Japanese Unit 731 (who made the Nazis look like saints) and you will see we never really had a problem with evil, we just had a problem with the Russians becoming too powerful and had to step in to make sure they didn't conquer Europe.

Most Americans didn't even seem to have much interest in taking down Hitler (infact, many of our major companies and banks were supporting him), they just wanted revenge against the Japanese... which of course we only wanted revenge against after we provoked them into a fight... and of course we only did that because the Japanese Empire was stretching it's borders towards our own colonial holdings and interests in the Far East.


Hardly the behaviour of "good guys".

We haven't been "the good guys" in a long time, if ever. We may have been the "better" guys, but certainly not the good ones.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Baruch

History vs Cartoons.  Engaging with adulthood vs childhood is ... hard.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Shiranu on August 02, 2019, 03:08:15 AM
Just because we fought the bad guys doesn't make "us" the good guys (which is not to say there weren't good individuals fighting the Nazis).

Just look at Operation Paperclip, or even worse our deals with the Japanese Unit 731 (who made the Nazis look like saints) and you will see we never really had a problem with evil, we just had a problem with the Russians becoming too powerful and had to step in to make sure they didn't conquer Europe.

Most Americans didn't even seem to have much interest in taking down Hitler (infact, many of our major companies and banks were supporting him), they just wanted revenge against the Japanese... which of course we only wanted revenge against after we provoked them into a fight... and of course we only did that because the Japanese Empire was stretching it's borders towards our own colonial holdings and interests in the Far East.


Hardly the behaviour of "good guys".

We haven't been "the good guys" in a long time, if ever. We may have been the "better" guys, but certainly not the good ones.

War is hell, and no one does it kindly.  I hate the phrase "mistakes were made" as if they were inevitable, but mistakes were made.  In wars, people panic.  They go extreme.  That's never good, but sometimes, not being crueler than "The Other Side" is best that can be managed. 

Sometimes nations fall apart under stress and desperately want to regain what they have lost even when they don't hate the people they fight.  They shouldn't, but they do.  Some things in history seem unstoppable.  Tojo did not want to attack the US,  Hitler didn't really want the US in his war.  Stalin took what the US gave to protect his country (evil bastard that he was) and then realized he hand a good gain going.  The Russians feared Germany and Europe in general for good reason.  (Napoleon, Hitler).  No one ever feels safe in Europe. 

I could get into Brexit here (Europe is only at peace when Britain, France, and Germany are at peace), but that is a different discussion today.

I fully agree that were atrocities on all sides in every war.  No nation is perfect.  I would argue that there matters of degrees, but cruelty is cruelty and no one is immune.

And I could argue details about the Japanese in China and Indochina.  But, not here, not now.  You would lose.  And I don't need that either...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
War is hell, and no one does it kindly.  I hate the phrase "mistakes were made" as if they were inevitable, but mistakes were made.  In wars, people panic.  They go extreme.  That's never good, but sometimes, not being crueler than "The Other Side" is best that can be managed. 

Sometimes nations fall apart under stress and desperately want to regain what they have lost even when they don't hate the people they fight.  They shouldn't, but they do.  Some things in history seem unstoppable.  Tojo did not want to attack the US,  Hitler didn't really want the US in his war.  Stalin took what the US gave to protect his country (evil bastard that he was) and then realized he hand a good gain going.  The Russians feared Germany and Europe in general for good reason.  (Napoleon, Hitler).  No one ever feels safe in Europe. 

I could get into Brexit here (Europe is only at peace when Britain, France, and Germany are at peace), but that is a different discussion today.

I fully agree that were atrocities on all sides in every war.  No nation is perfect.  I would argue that there matters of degrees, but cruelty is cruelty and no one is immune.

And I could argue details about the Japanese in China and Indochina.  But, not here, not now.  You would lose.  And I don't need that either...

Correct.  Winners get to be hypocrites ... Versailles, Nuremberg, Tokyo.  I am still awed by Gen McArthur in Tokyo 1945.  Not that he did much else right.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

trdsf

As a matter of curiosity, how many other think Boris won't even make it to the Brexit date without losing a confidence vote?
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: trdsf on August 06, 2019, 02:29:32 AM
As a matter of curiosity, how many other think Boris won't even make it to the Brexit date without losing a confidence vote?

Hmmm, I'll take that bet.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

drunkenshoe

The question is not 'Will Boris make it or not'. He won't even try. There is no plan B. No deal. 
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Baruch

To keep British sovereignty ... Oliver Cromwell 2.0.  Then resumption of British military predation against Ireland, France and Germany.

The inherent contradictions in the British system of government, that have festered for over 100 years .... will generate bad karma.

With collapse of GB, or no-deal Brexit ... or those are the same thing ... then Paris and Berlin will economically collapse.  Hopefully Putin can restore order.  200 years ago, Russia was a part of the peace guarantee.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 06, 2019, 05:12:36 AM
The question is not 'Will Boris make it or not'. He won't even try. There is no plan B. No deal.

The EU can't compromise ... if they do, then Italy leaves etc.  So Europe will have to go over the waterfall together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ez8gZmHJ0s

But there is redemption with penance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnXN-mRFoPI

Colonialism ends badly for the Europeans.  EU is Europe colonizing itself since there are no more New Worlds.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 12:20:50 PM
Correct.  Winners get to be hypocrites ... Versailles, Nuremberg, Tokyo.  I am still awed by Gen McArthur in Tokyo 1945.  Not that he did much else right.

Hypocrites are people who don't believe what they say.  That isn't the case here.  Leaders who have massive egos and delusions of grandeur often truly believe what they say.  I suspect even Nixon didn't think he was "a crook".  And then are the lies all diplomats have to say sometimes ("I think X is a true leader of his people").  Is a statement hypocracy when no one even expects it to be a true thought?

If it helps, I will agree that winners write history.  We Americans are very good at it.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on August 08, 2019, 09:58:46 AM
Hypocrites are people who don't believe what they say.  That isn't the case here.  Leaders who have massive egos and delusions of grandeur often truly believe what they say.  I suspect even Nixon didn't think he was "a crook".  And then are the lies all diplomats have to say sometimes ("I think X is a true leader of his people").  Is a statement hypocracy when no one even expects it to be a true thought?

If it helps, I will agree that winners write history.  We Americans are very good at it.

Yes, iiars all around.  Unless one eats one's own dogwood.  I was mentioning the fact that the US has routinely committed war crimes since the American Revolution.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Minimalist

The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Baruch

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 06, 2019, 05:12:36 AM
The question is not 'Will Boris make it or not'. He won't even try. There is no plan B. No deal.

France/Germany only negotiate to unconditional surrender of Anglophones, world wide.  Not going to happen.  3rd world war will be Russian/American/British against France/Germany?  Hard to imagine, but things change fast.  Personally not opposed to anyone, but that never works out.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.