Author Topic: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm  (Read 4407 times)

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2018, 07:45:31 PM »
Are you on suicide watch?
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline trdsf

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2018, 08:14:33 PM »
Pretty much, Mr. O, pretty much.  My analogy was that the promise of Brexit during the campaign was that they'd been promised a free Mercedes and $10,000 cash, and when it came down to the reality of it they were told they'd have to pay $25,000 for a used Yugo.  Since Brexit isn't going to be what was promised, it'd be irresponsible and unethical to not allow a second referendum.

What I still don't understand is why May is so gung-ho for it, considering a) she was a Remainer herself, b) the 2016 referendum was not binding but only advisory, and c) it was a narrow victory, not a clear mandate.  Is she genuinely trying to destroy the Conservative Party and/or the country?  Or is she hoping to derail Brexit by narrowing the choices to either a shitty deal or no deal at all?
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline Baruch

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2018, 11:44:59 PM »
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Are you on suicide watch?

Woke to the reality of humanity ;-(  It is humanity that is on suicide watch.  1914, 1939 on it goes.

trdsf - typical crystal balls.  When you have a tea with the PM, get back to us.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2018, 12:57:24 AM »
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Pretty much, Mr. O, pretty much.  My analogy was that the promise of Brexit during the campaign was that they'd been promised a free Mercedes and $10,000 cash, and when it came down to the reality of it they were told they'd have to pay $25,000 for a used Yugo.  Since Brexit isn't going to be what was promised, it'd be irresponsible and unethical to not allow a second referendum.

What I still don't understand is why May is so gung-ho for it, considering a) she was a Remainer herself, b) the 2016 referendum was not binding but only advisory, and c) it was a narrow victory, not a clear mandate.  Is she genuinely trying to destroy the Conservative Party and/or the country?  Or is she hoping to derail Brexit by narrowing the choices to either a shitty deal or no deal at all?

Well, to be fair. While i'm not a big May fan in particular,  i don't think anyone could have made an any better deal in her situation. THE EU simply can't lend a favorable tax-rate to THE UK alone under WTO rules. That'd be illegal. So if that's non-negotionable, and pretty much THE foundation for THE EU to begin with, what's there left to make a deal on?
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.


Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2018, 01:06:35 AM »
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Woke to the reality of humanity ;-(  It is humanity that is on suicide watch.  1914, 1939 on it goes.

trdsf - typical crystal balls.  When you have a tea with the PM, get back to us.


I thought I was a misanthrope but I feel like Mary Fucking Poppins next to you.  Have a drink or something.
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Online Munch

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2018, 05:06:52 AM »
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May was just the worst person for this. And not because she's a remainer, but cause she's a Secretary, she doesn't live on the same level as the people voting for or against.

You American guys here who thinks a second referendum leading to a turn around in favour of remain (I seem to remember discussing about American posters having misinformed opinions on British politics the same as some of yah said a brit can have no idea of American politics) is a good thing, I find it highly suspect a lot of you can call yourselves democrats, when you don't believe in democracy, as in the people getting what they vote for.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 05:35:07 AM by Munch »

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2018, 06:15:51 AM »
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May was just the worst person for this. And not because she's a remainer, but cause she's a Secretary, she doesn't live on the same level as the people voting for or against.

You American guys here who thinks a second referendum leading to a turn around in favour of remain (I seem to remember discussing about American posters having misinformed opinions on British politics the same as some of yah said a brit can have no idea of American politics) is a good thing, I find it highly suspect a lot of you can call yourselves democrats, when you don't believe in democracy, as in the people getting what they vote for.

But is it what they voted for? Didn't Daniel Hannan and others like Paterson assure that brexit wouldn't mean leaving the single market?
Now that it seems inevitable to do one without the other, is one still what you voted for?

Different and perhaps silly example, but still relevant, I think:
If I ask you to vote on stopping to pay taxes to pay for Brittish pensions, without any risk at all towards Brittish pensions still existing in the capacity they do today, and you vote yes, will you still have voted yes for me when I move to scrap all pensions and thus all payments you have to make towards them?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 06:24:59 AM by Mr.Obvious »
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.


Offline Baruch

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2018, 07:01:04 AM »
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I thought I was a misanthrope but I feel like Mary Fucking Poppins next to you.  Have a drink or something.

You are enlightened (to me).  You may now leave the monastery.

Munch & Mr Obvious ... obviously, hard Brexit is going to be very unpleasant.  Sometimes you have to cut your arm off, and cauterize, to avoid total death.

There is nothing democratic about America, we are an inverted totalitarianism.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 07:04:05 AM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline pr126

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2018, 10:17:06 AM »
Americans always know what is best for the UK.

But you Brits please don't stick your nose into US politics.
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Offline Baruch

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2018, 12:02:27 PM »
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Americans always know what is best for the UK.

But you Brits please don't stick your nose into US politics.

Yes, I do know what is best for you ... because I listen to you ... and have sympathy for you.  And I understand your anxiety as the US, which you rely somewhat on, turns into the kingdom of Cthulhu.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline SGOS

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2018, 01:53:02 PM »
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As optimistic as te majority might have been back in THE day of THE referendum, and no matter what politicians might've promised to convince them regarding immigration or whatnot; today's problems regarding borders, trade and thus economics, were pretty predictable. Honestly, and this might be skewed from my pro-EU attitude and ongoing membership: it seems like THE brittish were expecting to be able to leave THE EU while still enjoying all THE benefits a EU-membership entails. Like they thought they were so important THE EU would bend over backwards and change it'd rules just to make everything easier for THE brittish. Brexit will be a heavy blow, but they aren't THE center of THE universe.
Just how do you expect to make a better deal in trade with your most important economics partners when you decide to throw away all accords that make dealing cheaper? And even if you are able o make an as good a deal, then what's THE point? After all this time, i guess, i still don't know exactly what it was that they hoped to get out of this, that they didn't have or couldn't do before. Again, my pointed view as a european again.
You're appraisal makes sense to me, we don't get a lot of information on what Europeans are actually thinking, and your concerns take into account an array of aspects, both pro and con, to the problem, so I'm getting a view from both sides from a single observer, rather than an mindless ideologist.  OK, you've got some biases sure, but you know this and treat this issue in a thoughtful manner. 

Political deals seldom deliver what their proponents claim.  We've been through that here in the US with "saving the Iraqi people," "getting rid of those weapons of mass destruction," and "our own healthcare solution."  Political actions very often fail to deliver anywhere near what they promise, and often create new problems with their implementation.  People lose sight of what's happened as they cheer for whatever their party's leaders have done, and similarly lament over what the other party's leaders have done.

But it's nice to know people there are thinking about it.  The knee jerk referendum "mistake", if that's what it really was, is not surprising.  We have seen some dumb things passed by referendum over here, as well as dumb things passed by politicians.  Political systems around the world seem like huge internal messes to me, now more than ever before.

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2018, 02:19:27 PM »
In the spirit of sharing video's that no-one here's going to actually sit down and watch

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I quite liked this one.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.


Online Munch

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2018, 02:40:49 PM »
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In the spirit of sharing video's that no-one here's going to actually sit down and watch

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I quite liked this one.

you mean a guy who's made multiple videos with the heading 'brexit fallout'.

mmhmm.

the reporter raises some good points though. the eu wants all the cards. It whats its way of doing things like it does with Hungary, who had the balls to defy them.
And she keeps saying the uk didn't come up with any solution or alternative, in other words, it didn't come up with what the eu wanted to hear.

hey look I watched the video. Guess thats one up on the rest to afraid to have their social and political think-tank challenged. ^^

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2018, 03:52:28 PM »
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you mean a guy who's made multiple videos with the heading 'brexit fallout'.

mmhmm.

the reporter raises some good points though. the eu wants all the cards. It whats its way of doing things like it does with Hungary, who had the balls to defy them.
And she keeps saying the uk didn't come up with any solution or alternative, in other words, it didn't come up with what the eu wanted to hear.

hey look I watched the video. Guess thats one up on the rest to afraid to have their social and political think-tank challenged. ^^

Never claimed it was impartial.
Though: You're not seriously insinuating your or pr's videos are impartial, are you Munch. But that's fine, you are allowed to be partial. But i dislike video's that don't allow people to finish their train or thought or where it is just one tangent by one person or has a commentator intercutting every other sentence of someone's video. On either Side of THE argument. I stopped watching that thunderfoot, THE young Turks, buzzfeed, teal deer crap years ago. At least this conversation was a real one between real people. And i think it showcased 'european' mindset and THE 'brittish' mindset quite wel.

To me, THE reporter seemed like a stumbling buffoon who had no idea how international agreements larger than THE EU and border-agreements work. To you, THE german lady probably seemed most unreasonable. But THE uk didn't really provide any solutions, not acceptable ones that would also be acceptable to THE market we must protect to protect ourselves.
Let's say for a second we accept making trade between ireland and north-ireland; we would have a financial and juridicial disaster on our hands. And so would you, by THE way.
So what solutions are there? Hard Brexit? Well, yes, we guess. You could do that. It would not be good for us. Nor for you as you would fall under WTO trade rules, without any deals in place. So it is suggested, not forced, to elongate THE time to find a solution that works out for everyone. And if you don't agree withthat; fine but than there are consequences to that too.
that's what bothers me THE most in all this, you know? From across THE water, i get THE distinctie impression THE british Side doesn't realize that, as they wanted and always could, THEy have THE freedom and capaciteit to choose. (You know, like THE sovereign nation they always were.) but that does mean that they are free from THE consequences of those choices.
Anyway, your nation has spent two years fighting amongst itself and has failed to present anything concrete regarding an actual deal that could be acceptable to your  current 'biggest customer'. (And yes, THE main responsabilityfor presenting qomething concrete and acceptable lies with THE UK as you are THE ones insistent on leaving THE EU and THE single market,)  two years for not making an acceptable deal with one single market and copying THE schedules which can't possibly be accepted by THE WTO nations as you are then no longer a 600 million people market. Two years to not close 'THE world's easist deal' and schedules that are set to be opposed by three nations already and probably more tofollow. Good luck on your deals with THE other 120odd markets.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 06:02:15 PM by Mr.Obvious »
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, requesting 69 last night.


Offline Baruch

Re: So It Seems That Brexit Has Become a Category 5 Shitstorm
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2018, 04:09:21 PM »
Correct .. Germany not only wants to dominate W Europe, it wants control of the UN and everything else ... peacefully of course.  That is how you "up channel" concerns that cross borders.  With increasing integration between states, even domestic issues are international crises.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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