Author Topic: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked  (Read 1561 times)

Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« on: December 11, 2018, 12:13:52 PM »
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Basically Peterson is saying that God is recurring themes in human narratives and behaviors that are prosocial. He then uses the narratives found in literature, specifically the Bible, Jungian psychology and Russian novels, as explanations for the nature of God. As I see it there are two problems with this approach. One is by defining God as what I would call "the great narrative" he's not using the definition of God used by most people. If you accept his definition, one can't be an atheist because no one is going to say there is no order to the universe and humans don't tell stories.

The other problem I see is that Peterson, and everyone else, only follows stories that resonate with him. Peterson opposes cultural relativism but I think basing God on the stories that resonate with an individual or a culture is inherently relativistic. Two people can read the same story and come away with very different meanings.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2018, 01:11:35 PM »
It's what I call "cultural pareidolia." people read about this or that and put it together in ways that confirm their beliefs. I have a buddy that does that with ancient aliens.
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The phrase "freedom of religion" means "no freedom from religion."

Offline aitm

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2018, 02:17:53 PM »
Gods tend to follow the customs of the cultures they "serve" yet always suggested as the other way round. Years ago when I was reading "Black Elk Speaks" the Indian view of the gods was simplistic and asked for little, much as the Mongols of the "Nine Yak Tails", compared to "cultured" gods where the rules are more severe and detailed and as well the requests for intervention are far more complicated that a good hunt or strong child.

In the end....or as Amuricans are fond of saying, "at the end of the day", it appears that all of the gods, from the alligator to Zeus, seem to be unable to procure a greater percentage of success for their followers than any other god....shame.   Sad.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2018, 02:41:37 PM »
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It's what I call "cultural pareidolia." people read about this or that and put it together in ways that confirm their beliefs. I have a buddy that does that with ancient aliens.

I have a coworker who is very into ancient aliens, the electric universe and various secret societies. He frequently forwards videos and articles to me usually with the disclaimer, "Now I know your skeptical, but you have to watch this."
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2018, 04:51:29 PM »
Every time I hear Peterson talk about god I can't help but wonder if he actually believes what he is saying or if he simply knows that he has a strong conservative following and is trying to cash in on a desire for "serious, intellectual defense of christianity/god" using William Lane Craig style gobbledygook arguments.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2018, 05:44:53 PM »
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Every time I hear Peterson talk about god I can't help but wonder if he actually believes what he is saying or if he simply knows that he has a strong conservative following and is trying to cash in on a desire for "serious, intellectual defense of christianity/god" using William Lane Craig style gobbledygook arguments.

The impression that I get is he picks his words with tweezers and I can't really blame him. He knows there are Christians who want him to endorse their ideology but he's reluctant to do that directly. He his non-Christian following will dwindle if he is perceived to be a theologian. He really works with archetypes and narratives and in predominately Christian cultures it's Biblical stories that resonate. I'm not sure if Peterson believes Christianity is the one true religion.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 05:48:33 PM by GSOgymrat »
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2018, 05:56:40 PM »
I doubt he believes anything. He's just a character, playing a role.
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Offline SGOS

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2018, 06:40:04 PM »
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It's what I call "cultural pareidolia." people read about this or that and put it together in ways that confirm their beliefs. I have a buddy that does that with ancient aliens.
I'm impressed that you bothered to follow him at all.  I stopped viewing right at 6 minutes.  He reminds me of a westernized Deepak Chopra in that he doesn't seem to be saying anything, and he uses an excessive and unnecessary amount of words to do that, Chopra is at least succinct in his nonsense.  I'm happy that someone debunked him. I usually just shut him off.  To me he's just another self impressed windbag that takes forever to get to a point, and by that time I'm so bored that I could care less what his point was anyway.

Offline SGOS

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2018, 06:42:19 PM »
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I doubt he believes anything. He's just a character, playing a role.
An annoying intellectual?

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2018, 06:42:45 PM »
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I'm impressed that you bothered to follow him at all.

LOL! Don't be impressed - I didn't watch any of the video! I don't have time for such drivel.
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The phrase "freedom of religion" means "no freedom from religion."

Offline Baruch

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2018, 08:55:52 PM »
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Gods tend to follow the customs of the cultures they "serve" yet always suggested as the other way round. Years ago when I was reading "Black Elk Speaks" the Indian view of the gods was simplistic and asked for little, much as the Mongols of the "Nine Yak Tails", compared to "cultured" gods where the rules are more severe and detailed and as well the requests for intervention are far more complicated that a good hunt or strong child.

In the end....or as Amuricans are fond of saying, "at the end of the day", it appears that all of the gods, from the alligator to Zeus, seem to be unable to procure a greater percentage of success for their followers than any other god....shame.   Sad.

Two Southern college football teams, both majority Baptist, praying to Jebus for victory?  This was satirized in ancient Greece.  Not modern at all.

Go and pray to Pelosi or Trump why don't y'all.  There are your gods, with feet of clay.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2018, 08:57:11 PM »
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LOL! Don't be impressed - I didn't watch any of the video! I don't have time for such drivel.

Is that you ... Wile E Coyote ... Genius?
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2018, 09:06:40 PM »
Here is what y'all don't like.  The Intellectual Dark Web isn't Trotsky-ite.  Doesn't sound like a drug induced poli-sci class at UC-Berkeley in 1965, yes?

Yeah, he has had his brief dance with fame over 2.5 years now.  He has made a lot of money too.  And all you losers ... hate that.  Just as you hate anyone who is more famous or has more money than you ... because ... losers be losers.

As far as his theology goes, he is Jungian and agnostic.  A questionable psychology POV, not a theological POV.  But people here, don't believe in philosophy or theology, because those are Dead White People stuff.

I happen to agree, on very broad lines with Jordan Peterson ... that what is important in every discussion involving humans is ... psychology.  That psychology actually trumps philosophy and theology.  But I am actual theist, he is not.  Jung is interesting, but I can do my own metaphysics.

Other than that, we don't agree, because my individualism rejects his collective-unconscious group-think.  Western people have deep seated cultural patterns, that are not the same as deep seated Chinese cultural patterns.  And individuals are ... variant from those stereotypes.

And that is as far as his observations can take him ... if you are a Dead White Male ... then you share statistically, many of the same characteristics as other Dead White Males ... but relatively, not absolutely.

He also shows as many others have, that predominant male-female differences are ... real.  That Feminism is a Left political movement.  Though it looks like Feminism is going to be crushed under the Panzer tank treads of transgenderism.

So yeah, for the last 12 months I have been following, thru the broader Intellectual Dark Web ... this Jordan Peterson fad.  There are other people smarter than him ... but they aren't Progressives either.  Those all died from LSD overdose during the UCLA French Existentialist orgy of 1966.

One other thing I agree with him on ... totalitarians of any political wing, deserve death.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 09:22:09 PM by Baruch »
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2018, 10:55:20 PM »
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Here is what y'all don't like.  The Intellectual Dark Web isn't Trotsky-ite.  Doesn't sound like a drug induced poli-sci class at UC-Berkeley in 1965, yes?

Yeah, he has had his brief dance with fame over 2.5 years now.  He has made a lot of money too.  And all you losers ... hate that.  Just as you hate anyone who is more famous or has more money than you ... because ... losers be losers.

Why would I fault him for making money? I bought his books and was going to pay to see him talk but the plans fell through. As a therapist, I'm thrilled that a psychologist has gained international attention with a best-selling Jungian-inspired self-help book. That people are talking about Jung in 2018 is pretty amazing.

Quote
I happen to agree, on very broad lines with Jordan Peterson ... that what is important in every discussion involving humans is ... psychology.  That psychology actually trumps philosophy and theology.  But I am actual theist, he is not.  Jung is interesting, but I can do my own metaphysics.

I like Jordan Peterson, his personality and his ideas, and I agree with a lot of what he says. When it comes to what he has to say about God I'm less impressed. The problem, as I said before, is narratives lend themselves to relativism and alternate perspectives. Much of therapy is helping people discover new personal narratives. Peterson tries to ground narratives in archetypes but even those are maleable. For example, Peterson writes that male represents order and female represents chaos but that can easily go the other way: women keep home and hearth while men leave to explore, women give life while men deal death, etcetera.

Quote
He also shows as many others have, that predominant male-female differences are ... real.  That Feminism is a Left political movement.  Though it looks like Feminism is going to be crushed under the Panzer tank treads of transgenderism.

Anyone who has been around young children knows gender differences are real. Transgender people are acutely aware of gender differences. If gender differences were totally socially derived trans people would not be physically altering their bodies.

Quote
Other than that, we don't agree, because my individualism rejects his collective-unconscious group-think.  Western people have deep seated cultural patterns, that are not the same as deep seated Chinese cultural patterns.  And individuals are ... variant from those stereotypes.

This touches on my other problem with his process when he talks about God. Chinese narratives aren't Canadian narratives except in the broadest sense and I don't think you can cherry pick the narratives that are shared by people in various cultures, combined with genetic predispositions and evolutionary psychology, and use that as evidence for God... well, obviously people do but I don't buy it.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Offline Baruch

Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2018, 03:03:16 AM »
GSOgymrat - My last post isn't about you personally.  Unless I can tag a particular response to a particular person.  There are plenty of people here who fit my ... profiling them.  It is also OK to be uncomfortable with his god-talk.  You are much more into him than I am, but as you say, it is probably because of what you do for a living.  Whatever reason he has for the god-talk ... it is probably complicated.  As with so much other "crop circle" evidence, qualitative, not quantitative, and not reproducible under controlled conditions ... however persuasive it might seem, it is woo.  On psychology, he knows some things.  On religion, not so much.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 03:09:14 AM by Baruch »
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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