Author Topic: Pearl Harbor day special ...  (Read 251 times)

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2018, 06:31:25 PM »
Those 40 torpedo bombers only had a handful of targets on battleship row.



Although why Nevada, exposed at the end of the line wasn't one of them is beyond me.  You'd have to ask them and I imagine damn few survived the war.

It seems that Nevada was only hit once by torpedoes which certainly is grounds to criticize target selection by the pilots.
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2018, 06:41:50 PM »
So, in any case, Nagumo pulled his punch, to prematurely save his ships (per higher orders and his own predilection).  Things might have been different if Yamamoto had been on the scene, to over-rule Nagumo, either launching some more raids to destroy more of Pearl Harbor (if not the oil depot) or better yet, laying out to sea, and laying an ambush for the incoming US carriers.  In any case, I think immediate carrier hunting should have been the next mission, if they still had ammo etc.  Even using the non-carrier part of the fleet would have been damaging to a warned, but un-blooded US forces.  Instead they went after Guam and Wake, when Midway could be had for free at that point.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2018, 07:56:14 PM »
Agreed.  But again the Japanese admirals knew that their ships were irreplaceable.  They finished two battleships (Yamato and Musashi which were nearly complete in Dec. 1941 and a sister ship Shinano which began life as a battleship and died a poorly constructed carrier) the Taiho, built almost entirely during the war and again suffered from design flaws which meant her combat career was short-lived.  The completed a couple of conversions of ships into carriers but built no heavy cruisers, a couple of light cruisers and roughly 40 destroyers.

What was also irreplaceable were their air crews.  Allied pilot training programs were superb.  Germans less so and the Japanese were terrible at it.  I recall reading that after Santa Cruz a group of Kates came upon the hulk of the Hornet, launched 6 torpedoes at a basically stationary target and only got one hit.

Again, this goes back to G/S's samurai observation.  These pilots considered themselves warriors who wanted to fight.  They didn't want to teach. 
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2018, 08:14:23 PM »
All this talk about Pearl Harbor reminds me on one of the most startling days of my life.  I was stationed in downtown Honolulu while in the regular Army.  I lived at Schofield Barracks and made a 45 min. compute to and from work.  I used the Nimitz Hwy to and fro each day, and that goes right past Pearl Harbor and Ford Island.  I was day dreaming one day coming to work and looked up at one of the strangest sights I've ever seen.  I saw, coming right at my windshield, 3 Jap Zeros, yellow with the red suns in wing formation; they were probably about 100 ft up and just coming out of a bank and aiming for Ford Island.  I then noticed 5 more formations all in a line on a curve and flying toward Ford Island.  And their wing machine guns were working--at least the ones flying over my car.  I did not know whether or not to shit or go blind!  So, I did both!  I still had no idea what was going on (Twilight Zone????) when I got to work, but soon found out Tora, Tora, Tora was filming that day.  Needless to say I did not need coffee at work that morning.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2018, 08:20:02 PM »
Wow, I can see how that would provide a real wake up!
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Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2018, 08:54:48 PM »
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Wow, I can see how that would provide a real wake up!
Yeah, it was.  For a few seconds I had all kinds of thoughts running through my head.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2018, 09:27:52 PM »
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Yeah, it was.  For a few seconds I had all kinds of thoughts running through my head.

Did you see Kirk Douglas also, perhaps?
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2018, 10:30:17 PM »
Quote
Needless to say I did not need coffee at work that morning.


Did you have to dry your pants, though?
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2018, 11:22:11 PM »
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Did you have to dry your pants, though?
Luckily I kept a change of cloths at the office. :))
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Cavebear

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2018, 01:53:08 AM »
It is routine for aggressor nations to underestimate the long-term industrial base of an enemy, thinking that fast action or national superiority (soldier bravery, leadership skills, citizen-support) will win.

Napoleon assumed his leadership and tactical skills would win against that of all of Europe.  He was wrong.

The US Confederacy assumed a military heritage skill that could not stand against population and industrial might of the Union.  They were wrong.

Hitler assumed his "genius" strategies (and there were many) would succeed against all of Europe and Russia.  He was wrong.

The Japanese assumed a first strike and military fanaticism would succeed.  They were wrong.

There are only 2 ways to succeed against overwhelming industrial military strength.   Asymmetrical warfare and equaling the industrial strength of the enemy by a long build-up of industrial capability.

I propose that building an equal industrial military capability, involving the non-military industry means that one does not benefit from war.  So the strategy to eliminate warfare really means to eliminate asymmetrical warfare.

 

 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2018, 05:12:40 AM »
Nagumo Chuichi had to weigh the value of a second attack against the orders he had and the amount of damage they could do against an alerted and somewhat hostile USN and US Army. He had been ordered to keep his forces together and no more damaged than necessary because they would be needed to assist the Army's advance into "the Southern Resources Area". If the pilots were lost the carriers would be no more than big floating barns. Remember that the IJN took three years to produce a battle-ready pilot, as opposed to the USN's two years.

A second attack simply wasn't worth it.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2018, 05:39:29 AM »
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Nagumo Chuichi had to weigh the value of a second attack against the orders he had and the amount of damage they could do against an alerted and somewhat hostile USN and US Army. He had been ordered to keep his forces together and no more damaged than necessary because they would be needed to assist the Army's advance into "the Southern Resources Area". If the pilots were lost the carriers would be no more than big floating barns. Remember that the IJN took three years to produce a battle-ready pilot, as opposed to the USN's two years.

A second attack simply wasn't worth it.

Understood.  But that is what happens when an insufficient armed force attacks a more equipped and industrially-responsive-adaptable one.  Don't attack someone you don't have a long-term advantage over.

In strictly military terms, the Japanese military leaders did the best they could.  It was, however, doomed.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2018, 07:21:08 AM »
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Understood.  But that is what happens when an insufficient armed force attacks a more equipped and industrially-responsive-adaptable one.  Don't attack someone you don't have a long-term advantage over.

In strictly military terms, the Japanese military leaders did the best they could.  It was, however, doomed.
The best they could have done was to call off the war in China and offer to be the second Arsenal of Democracy. The US would have helped them with industrialization and the Soviets would have taken everything they could produce. The Japanese Miracle would happen to an undamaged country and gotten a fifteen/twenty year head start.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2018, 07:22:49 AM »
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So, in any case, Nagumo pulled his punch, to prematurely save his ships (per higher orders and his own predilection).  Things might have been different if Yamamoto had been on the scene, to over-rule Nagumo, either launching some more raids to destroy more of Pearl Harbor (if not the oil depot) or better yet, laying out to sea, and laying an ambush for the incoming US carriers.  In any case, I think immediate carrier hunting should have been the next mission, if they still had ammo etc.  Even using the non-carrier part of the fleet would have been damaging to a warned, but un-blooded US forces.  Instead they went after Guam and Wake, when Midway could be had for free at that point.
That's exactly the scenario Yamamoto was afraid of. It played out at Midway six months later.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2018, 07:54:50 AM »
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The best they could have done was to call off the war in China and offer to be the second Arsenal of Democracy. The US would have helped them with industrialization and the Soviets would have taken everything they could produce. The Japanese Miracle would happen to an undamaged country and gotten a fifteen/twenty year head start.

Well, no.  Actually, all they had to do was stop massacring Chinese and return to international trade for what they needed (and not attacking China to begin with would have been helpful history-wise).  They didn't have to be "an arsenal of democracy" or change their govt.  The Soviets were not a threat to them at the time.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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