Author Topic: Pearl Harbor day special ...  (Read 4402 times)

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2018, 08:43:40 AM »
Considering that the Big Six made all the decisions about what the Emperor heard I don't see him having much leverage.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2018, 08:57:53 AM »
Considering that the Big Six made all the decisions about what the Emperor heard I don't see him having much leverage.

It's not what HE knew, it is what the people THOUGHT he knew...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2018, 09:06:05 AM »
It's not what HE knew, it is what the people THOUGHT he knew...
And that was...
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2018, 12:41:30 PM »
Hirohito .. in the context of Meiji Restoration State Shinto ... took the rare position of a militant Buddhist.  In the Japanese calendar, the strike on the US was on Dec 8, not Dec 7.  Dec 8 was Buddha's birthday.  Hirohito has been shown to be ambitious to be a chakravartin ... a world conquering Buddhist Emperor (first seen with Emperor Ashoka in India).  So of course, he could have been tried for war crimes.  As a practical matter, and since he was essential for the surrender (Japan being a unique theocratic society), doubly so, he wasn't tried, and retained as a constitutional monarch.

It was primarily the Japanese Army that promised conquest, and when they ran into trouble in China, they drug the Japanese Navy in.  The Emperor personally approved all initial hostilities.  He didn't direct day to day affairs, unlike Hitler.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
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Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2018, 08:11:26 PM »
See this one?

Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2018, 07:11:34 AM »
Hirohito .. in the context of Meiji Restoration State Shinto ... took the rare position of a militant Buddhist.  In the Japanese calendar, the strike on the US was on Dec 8, not Dec 7.  Dec 8 was Buddha's birthday.  Hirohito has been shown to be ambitious to be a chakravartin ... a world conquering Buddhist Emperor (first seen with Emperor Ashoka in India).  So of course, he could have been tried for war crimes.  As a practical matter, and since he was essential for the surrender (Japan being a unique theocratic society), doubly so, he wasn't tried, and retained as a constitutional monarch.

It was primarily the Japanese Army that promised conquest, and when they ran into trouble in China, they drug the Japanese Navy in.  The Emperor personally approved all initial hostilities.  He didn't direct day to day affairs, unlike Hitler.
The cabinet's Liaison Conference formulated policy and it was read aloud in the Imperial Conference. This gave it the imperial seal.  The emperor never spoke during these conferences until after Nagasaki.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2018, 10:18:47 AM »
The cabinet's Liaison Conference formulated policy and it was read aloud in the Imperial Conference. This gave it the imperial seal.  The emperor never spoke during these conferences until after Nagasaki.

Which is a strange way to govern, but a god king can't speak (without irreversible consequences ... like the Pope (ex cathedra)).  But hardly makes him innocent.  He is at least negligent.  The desire to try and execute the Emperor had a valid point.  Just as vengeance could have been taken against Kaiser Wilhelm (who was much more actively involved, as a Western king).  In both cases vengeance was put aside, for various reasons.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2018, 11:06:24 AM »
Which is a strange way to govern, but a god king can't speak (without irreversible consequences ... like the Pope (ex cathedra)).  But hardly makes him innocent.  He is at least negligent.  The desire to try and execute the Emperor had a valid point.  Just as vengeance could have been taken against Kaiser Wilhelm (who was much more actively involved, as a Western king).  In both cases vengeance was put aside, for various reasons.
It's the Japanese way to govern. Remember that the Emperor was a figurehead for centuries, the actual rulers used him as a rubber stamp. Hirohito had no actually power, and the militants would have replaced him with one of his brothers if he didn't toe the line.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2018, 11:08:05 AM »
Separate post: The Allies kept Hirohito to stop the expected guerrilla groups from conducting resistance to the occupation.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2018, 12:40:04 PM »
It's the Japanese way to govern. Remember that the Emperor was a figurehead for centuries, the actual rulers used him as a rubber stamp. Hirohito had no actually power, and the militants would have replaced him with one of his brothers if he didn't toe the line.

I think you are assuming the Meiji restoration wasn't real, just a show for Shogunate by other means.

King George VI for instance, was a figurehead ... but without his overturning King Edward VII, and supporting Churchill (who had supported King George VI in 1936), then nothing good would have happened, other than the British Empire supporting Hitler from the get go.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 12:42:30 PM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2018, 01:40:03 PM »
I think you are assuming the Meiji restoration wasn't real, just a show for Shogunate by other means.

King George VI for instance, was a figurehead ... but without his overturning King Edward VII, and supporting Churchill (who had supported King George VI in 1936), then nothing good would have happened, other than the British Empire supporting Hitler from the get go.
Count the number of times an Emperor spoke up in the Imperial Conferences. That total was "one".

The military got control of the Japanese government when the constitution was changed to return the offices of War Minister and Navy Minister to active duty officers. After 1932 the Army and/or Navy could bring down a cabinet by simply reassigning the officer who held that Ministerial position. No Prime Minister could be sure of staying in office unless he catered to the military. THAT is where the real power lay.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2018, 03:43:08 PM »
Count the number of times an Emperor spoke up in the Imperial Conferences. That total was "one".

The military got control of the Japanese government when the constitution was changed to return the offices of War Minister and Navy Minister to active duty officers. After 1932 the Army and/or Navy could bring down a cabinet by simply reassigning the officer who held that Ministerial position. No Prime Minister could be sure of staying in office unless he catered to the military. THAT is where the real power lay.

But is that what the Emperor wanted, acting thru others?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2018, 03:56:04 PM »
But is that what the Emperor wanted, acting thru others?
How could we know that?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2018, 04:05:50 PM »
How could we know that?

Exactly ... from the minimalist position.  Since we don't know George Washington's private thoughts or conversations ... it must not have happened.  If one ups the standard for fact in historical description, there isn't too much to know, because needing so many un-conflicted witnesses, and their testimony has to be un-polished for posterity.  Much of the post WW II German general autobiography is too eager to blame Hitler for everything.

http://www.realclearlife.com/history/emperor-hirohito-war-criminal/

History is complicated.  I think Hirohito should be thanked for ending the war with Japan, and assisting the post-war reconstruction.  Japanese cooperation was essential for recovering from the initial defeat of the UN in Korea (Toyota trucks).  Perhaps that makes up (under American occupation) for what the Chinese would have certainly executed him for ... on the theory that the Emperor must take responsibility, not his generals.

The ultimate minimalist position is solipsism ... if I didn't witness it myself, then it didn't happen.  And I am not sure (based on real evidence from criminal cases) that I can believe my lying eyes.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2018, 04:59:52 PM »
Like I said above, the person on the Chrysanthemum Throne was the key to a quick end to the war or an endless guerilla-bedeviled occupation. Regardless of his personal responsibility he was in the position to save many lives and allow Japan to begin to heal.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers