Author Topic: Pearl Harbor day special ...  (Read 1978 times)

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2018, 10:09:37 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well, no.  Actually, all they had to do was stop massacring Chinese and return to international trade for what they needed (and not attacking China to begin with would have been helpful history-wise).  They didn't have to be "an arsenal of democracy" or change their govt.  The Soviets were not a threat to them at the time.
That's not "The best they could have done", that just restoring the status quo ante.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Cavebear

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2018, 10:21:27 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's not "The best they could have done", that just restoring the status quo ante.

It wouldn't have been the status quo ante if it hadn't started.  That's where they went wrong.  The pre WW2 Japanese were well on their way to a modern industrial society.  They didn't build battleships and Zeros from bamboo.  They just got greedy and tried to advance too fast.  If they had just worked slowly up in international trade they would have done fine.

I could get more subtle about this mentioning how they were limited by European Powers and treated as 2nd world citizens (and all that with justified anger) but they still made the decision to try to steal from others and were unbelievably brutal about it.

I have some understanding about their frustration, but no tolerance for the actions in response.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2018, 10:32:21 AM »
You know the Japanese had about 10% IIRC of the industrial capacity of the US, right?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2018, 03:37:04 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's not "The best they could have done", that just restoring the status quo ante.

The Chinese might have been disturbed to be sold-out twice, once the Germany, and again by the Allies.  The German generals had the non-starter position of wanting to freeze the lines with an armistice, and keep anything not theirs, still within their reach.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2018, 03:40:19 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's exactly the scenario Yamamoto was afraid of. It played out at Midway six months later.

If they attacked immediately, the US didn't have the naval code breaking yet (other than the diplomatic code).  Success in war is all about timing.  Go too early or too late, and you loose even against an inferior opponent.  The problem for Germany would have been ... too late in attacking the Soviet Union.  As it was they were about 2 months late on their own schedule, and froze at Moscow.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2018, 04:15:41 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The Chinese might have been disturbed to be sold-out twice, once the Germany, and again by the Allies.  The German generals had the non-starter position of wanting to freeze the lines with an armistice, and keep anything not theirs, still within their reach.
You missed the point. The Japanese would be "bribed" to not go to war with China. That leaves the KMT and the Commies to fight it out in peace.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2018, 04:16:57 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If they attacked immediately, the US didn't have the naval code breaking yet (other than the diplomatic code).  Success in war is all about timing.  Go too early or too late, and you loose even against an inferior opponent.  The problem for Germany would have been ... too late in attacking the Soviet Union.  As it was they were about 2 months late on their own schedule, and froze at Moscow.
Pearl wasn't Japan's objective, the carriers weren't Japan's objective.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2018, 06:01:55 PM »
The Japanese thought that by dealing a smashing blow to the fleet they would force us to negotiate with them on their terms.  Their understanding of the American psyche was as flawed as ours was of them. 

There's a story, probably apocryphal, of how one night along the Matanikau line some Marine yelled "Hirohito eats shit."  The Japanese line opened up with a blaze of fire and were hit by a counterstorm of mortar and machine gun fire.  The next night, a Jap yelled "Roosevelt eat shit" and a Marine yelled back "You're damned right he does... if it wasn't for him I wouldn't be here."

I read a book some years ago, I wish I could remember the name but what it was was a collection of Japanese diaries that had been picked up by G-2.  The hopelessness of individual soldiers came through loud and clear but they still were resolved to die for the emperor.  In fact, the desire was so deeply ingrained that many of them held grenades to their chests as soon as the US troops got near.  They killed themselves without fighting because they did not dare risk being incapacitated and captured.  To the Western mind it is a staggering point of view.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 06:08:56 PM by Minimalist »
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2018, 06:05:15 PM »
Yeah, that's what fanaticism will do to people.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The phrase "freedom of religion" means "no freedom from religion."

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2018, 06:11:26 PM »
It's what happens when you think you are following a god.

The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2018, 06:30:25 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There's a story, probably apocryphal, of how one night along the Matanikau line some Marine yelled "Hirohito eats shit."  The Japanese line opened up with a blaze of fire and were hit by a counterstorm of mortar and machine gun fire.  The next night, a Jap yelled "Roosevelt eat shit" and a Marine yelled back "You're damned right he does... if it wasn't for him I wouldn't be here."
Heard that one but set in the ACW.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2018, 06:52:21 PM »
Why would Federal or Confederate troops give a shit about Hirohito?

 :wink2:
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2018, 06:52:55 PM »
Obviously the smiley's don't work so well here?
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2018, 06:56:04 PM »
Not since the last upgrade, or whatever that was.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The phrase "freedom of religion" means "no freedom from religion."

Offline Baruch

Re: Pearl Harbor day special ...
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2018, 07:56:02 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It's what happens when you think you are following a god.



And you abolish slavery in the British Empire and the US and abolish serfdom in the Russian Empire.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk