Author Topic: Argument From Consciousness  (Read 819 times)

Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2018, 07:37:44 AM »
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There is no evolutionary advantage to the advent of consciousness, in fact, it may even be a disadvantage.

Are you arguing here that consciousness would need to provide an evolutionary advantage before it could be passed down to the population at large? Because if you are that is just plain wrong. Not to mention a misunderstanding of the evolutionary process. Red hair offers no evolutionary advantage yet about 2% of people have it. There are plenty of other examples of traits that offer no evolutionary advantage whose existence can be explained by evolution if you need them.

Or is your argument simply that creation of the universe required consciousness? If so then there are alternatives to that hypothesis. Brane cosmology is one competing hypothesis, and there are several others.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2018, 07:39:18 AM »
I prefer to be brane-less ;-)  I also consider the origin of the universe to be irrelevant.  Here and now, that is relevant.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline aitm

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2018, 09:21:29 AM »
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There there. It must be hard, trying to fathom external thought processes.

It's easy to see foolish thoughts, but tell a fool he is foolish and they call you a fool. Yeah..yer a real brainiac.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline SGOS

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2018, 09:59:49 AM »
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Are you arguing here that consciousness would need to provide an evolutionary advantage before it could be passed down to the population at large?
The OP is not an argument.  It appears to be in sentence structure, but its purpose is just to engage in a series of disconnected defenses of random unsupportable claims of the supernatural.  That is apparent in the length of the thread.  If it was about the OP, the discussion would be over, and others have already alluded to the threads loss of direction.  In fact your own responses indicate you are trying to make sense out of the incomprehensible nature of the discussion

Your queries:
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Because if you are...

Or is your argument simply that...
We find ourselves in a corral that has no purpose other than to give Birdy someone to talk to.  What started as an honest attempt to discuss a phenomenon that mankind has yet to understand as become an environment for Birdy to throw out random spiritual claims which she feels no obligation to support, because that was never her intention to begin with.  She's just looking for attention.

Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2018, 12:37:47 PM »
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The OP is not an argument.  It appears to be in sentence structure, but its purpose is just to engage in a series of disconnected defenses of random unsupportable claims of the supernatural.  That is apparent in the length of the thread.  If it was about the OP, the discussion would be over, and others have already alluded to the threads loss of direction.  In fact your own responses indicate you are trying to make sense out of the incomprehensible nature of the discussion

Your queries: We find ourselves in a corral that has no purpose other than to give Birdy someone to talk to.  What started as an honest attempt to discuss a phenomenon that mankind has yet to understand as become an environment for Birdy to throw out random spiritual claims which she feels no obligation to support, because that was never her intention to begin with.  She's just looking for attention.

Glad I never got past the OP then. :)
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Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2018, 01:20:19 PM »
Birdy should maybe just adopt a greyhound, then she'd have someone to talk to.
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"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate."
Isaac Asimov

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2018, 01:22:07 PM »
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Unlike you, who knows that the world is devoid of purpose or meaning.
Yep, I do know exactly that. It's almost all I really do know, though, besides the fact of my own existence.
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"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate."
Isaac Asimov

Offline trdsf

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #82 on: December 05, 2018, 12:57:55 AM »
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There is no evolutionary advantage to the advent of consciousness, in fact, it may even be a disadvantage. Was there consciousness at the beginning of the universe? The atheist view is that there was not. If consciousness is an evolutionary advantage, in that it takes the intelligence of a sentient being to run the body of an organism when it reaches a certainty complexity, why was there no consciousness at the beginning of creation? Doesn't it take something special to create that kind of occurrence?
In a word, no.

In rather more words: we have a pretty good theoretical understanding of the processes that got us from a bang 13.799Β±0.021 billion years ago to today, and overthrowing the wholes of cosmology, astrophysics, geology, biochemistry, and evolutionary biology requires a whole lot more than "I can't wrap my brain around it therefore god!"

There is nothing in the current understanding of the Big Bang that requires a consciousness to set it off.  If you wish to assert that it did require one, you need to prove the need for one, not simply assert your belief that it did as if it deserves to be given the same status as long-studied and data-supported scientific theories.

It doesn't require consciousness to "run the body of an organism when it reaches a certainty complexity" -- most mammals on the Earth today are just as biophysically and biochemically complex as human beings, and are just as evolved as we are.  Certainly at a minimum the other hominidΓ¦are, like the orangutans (genus Pongo), gorillas (genus Gorilla) and chimpanzees and bonobos (genus Pan), in addition to ourselves (genus Homo).

Also, the universe doesn't owe you an explanation.  The universe isn't obligated to be explicable.  How unspeakably arrogant you are to expect that your explanation without data deserves to be taken seriously for anything longer than a microsecond!

We are not necessary to the universe.  We are merely possible within the universe.  And that simple idea has awesome implications -- by not assuming we're the point of the universe, think of all the other wonders currently not conceived of, of which the universe is capable of spawning by simple laws and simple physics and simple chemistry.

Your concept of a parochial universe created by a consciousness?  How pathetically small.  I prefer a reality that's larger than my imagination.  I love being shocked out of my complacency.  I genuinely wept when the nitrogen glaciers of Pluto were discovered simply because that was so far past anything I had ever thought possible... and they were real, backed up by observation, not mere assertion.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 06:25:43 PM by trdsf »
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline Cavebear

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #83 on: December 05, 2018, 04:12:01 AM »
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There is a certain brand of atheists I was targeting, which are the type that don't believe in anything supernatural - whether that be life after death, God, the soul, sometimes free will but not necessarily.

That would be ALL actual atheists...  There is no "certain brand" of atheists who believe in things supernatural.  If some people do, they aren't atheists.

I always find it a bit fascinating to read some posts where people claim to be atheists and also have some supernatural ideas.  They are completely self-deluded idiots, of course.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #84 on: December 05, 2018, 07:50:50 AM »
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That would be ALL actual atheists...  There is no "certain brand" of atheists who believe in things supernatural.  If some people do, they aren't atheists.

I always find it a bit fascinating to read some posts where people claim to be atheists and also have some supernatural ideas.  They are completely self-deluded idiots, of course.

Just like any other group of people.  Humans are a failed species.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2018, 06:45:43 PM »
Well, Birdy23 didn't last very long, huh?
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"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate."
Isaac Asimov

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2018, 06:55:00 PM »
Maybe she fell unconscious striving to become Birdy24.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2018, 07:06:25 PM »
Maybe she just realized we wouldn't accept her blatherskite without question, and decided to ply her wares elsewhere.
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"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate."
Isaac Asimov

Offline aitm

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2018, 09:03:41 PM »
If there is one thing we have learned about the religious is that "interpretation" is not just a word, it's a fucking open invitation to invent shit that any word can mean any other word if the summation equals their pre-determined conclusion. Birdy will be back....them whack jobs never seem to leave...
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline the_antithesis

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2018, 01:31:37 AM »
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There is a certain brand of atheists I was targeting, which are the type that don't believe in anything supernatural - whether that be life after death, God, the soul, sometimes free will but not necessarily.

If any of those things exist then they are not supernatural. They would be just natural.

 

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