Author Topic: Argument From Consciousness  (Read 3003 times)

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2018, 07:29:52 PM »
Hell, cognitive dissonance can be a lot of fun! LOL
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The phrase "freedom of religion" means "no freedom from religion."

Online Shiranu

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2018, 07:37:54 PM »
Quote
Compared to what? What is good at processing abstract ideas?

Nothing, as far as I know. By their very nature abstract ideas should not be easily processed.
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2018, 07:40:47 PM »
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Hell, cognitive dissonance can be a lot of fun! LOL

Most people like to reference the passage they are referring to, if they are trying to have a discussion.

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2018, 07:42:34 PM »
Well, we sometimes like to indulge in a bit of witty repartee. Or at least make the attempt.
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The phrase "freedom of religion" means "no freedom from religion."

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2018, 07:47:03 PM »
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Well, we sometimes like to indulge in a bit of witty repartee. Or at least make the attempt.

If it is not referenced what you are referring to, the joke falls flat.

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2018, 08:11:25 PM »
Baruch knew what I was talking about, I think. Besides, you came to us, we didn't come to you, so don't expect us to follow your rules.
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The phrase "freedom of religion" means "no freedom from religion."

Offline Baruch

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2018, 08:14:53 PM »
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If it is not referenced what you are referring to, the joke falls flat.

We prefer flat jokes here, not bumpy, because that is bad for the tires.

You seem to be YAE ... Yet Another Evangelist.  So I am not expecting what the hoi polloi call "conversation".
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2018, 08:15:39 PM »
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Nothing, as far as I know. By their very nature abstract ideas should not be easily processed.

Philosophers, theoreticians ... and other useless people do that ;-)
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2018, 08:46:29 PM »
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There is a lot in there to unpack.  I'll try to give you a thumbnail sketch of what I think.  I think the universe just is.  We are not close at all to know, much less fully understand how it came to be.  One hypothesis is that it was created by the Big Bang.  What evidence do we have of that and how do I know the evidence is valid?  I must admit to not being a scientist nor physicist.  What little I understand seems to make this a plausible hypothesis (don't know if there is enough evidence for it to be a theory yet) possible.  At least there is some data.  God supplies us with no data; god could be possible, I guess, but from such a lack of evidence I think it is proof that god does not exist.

Also, the universe is totally and completely neutral--does not care (not capable of caring anyway) one way or the other about anything.  Does my life have meaning?  It does to me because I chose to attach meaning to it.  I have had to come to what that meaning is and what it means to me.  And my meaning is only meaning for me.  And I maintain that my morality is my own and is mainly derived from the society in which I grew up and live in.  And it is mine, not yours.  We all have to figure out what the meaning of life is and what moral rules one will follow.  As Joseph Campbell put it--the meaning of life is life.  I find I am alive and that is the meaning of my life--I'm alive.  What does it mean to be human?  I have no generalized thing a human must be or do.  It is all up to the individual to figure that out.  If my life ever becomes, for whatever reason, filled with unending or chronic pain I can find no good reason to continue and I should be able to end it.  But it should be my decision. 

My life was not conceived some entity for whatever reasons that entity had; it is a happenstance thing.  And when I die I will return to the basic building stuff of the universe.  I don't fear that nor have any problem with it. 

And I have never had an atheist try to convince me that I am not important or meaningless--but I've had many theists tell me that.

What is the purpose of consciousness? Does it serve an evolutionary purpose?

Why did something with so much meaning and value come about from a universe that does not have the ability to grasp meaning? Why would it be in the form of a race that strives above all for self-betterment?

You could argue that that is irrelevant, that it is the nature of the universe, or multiverse, to try every single possibility.

In a universe where it takes a conscious being to give an animal a push to survive, does consciousness not provide a harder push?

Do you believe in free will?

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2018, 09:13:08 PM »
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What is the purpose of consciousness? Does it serve an evolutionary purpose?

Why did something with so much meaning and value come about from a universe that does not have the ability to grasp meaning? Why would it be in the form of a race that strives above all for self-betterment?

You could argue that that is irrelevant, that it is the nature of the universe, or multiverse, to try every single possibility.

Do you believe in free will?
I don't know that consciousness has any inherent meaning.  It very well may be the result of a part of the evolutionary  process in that a species that develops consciousness as a step in survival of the fittest; a consciousness individual may fit into it's environment better than one without consciousness.  I don't see the universe as trying to do anything--it just is and what happens happens.  You seem to want to give consciousness some special meaning; I don't.  It just is.  You give it value--I do to, but that's because I'd rather have it than not. 

You ask: "In a universe where it takes a conscious being to give an animal a push to survive, does consciousness not provide a harder push?"  I don't understand what you mean.

Free will?  No, humans do not have free will.  We do have the ability to make choices.  In fact, even when we don't make choices, that was a choice.  We are faced with choices daily--shoot, every second of every day.  I'd suggest it as the dictatorship of choice--we must choose, for even not choosing is a choice.  Is this free will?  Not really.  I did not chose to be born, for example.  And according to most religions, we cannot even choose when we leave this life.  We make choices within certain boundaries--we are not free to choose what we want to.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2018, 09:31:04 PM »
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I don't know that consciousness has any inherent meaning.  It very well may be the result of a part of the evolutionary  process in that a species that develops consciousness as a step in survival of the fittest; a consciousness individual may fit into it's environment better than one without consciousness.  I don't see the universe as trying to do anything--it just is and what happens happens.  You seem to want to give consciousness some special meaning; I don't.  It just is.  You give it value--I do to, but that's because I'd rather have it than not. 

You ask: "In a universe where it takes a conscious being to give an animal a push to survive, does consciousness not provide a harder push?"  I don't understand what you mean.

Free will?  No, humans do not have free will.  We do have the ability to make choices.  In fact, even when we don't make choices, that was a choice.  We are faced with choices daily--shoot, every second of every day.  I'd suggest it as the dictatorship of choice--we must choose, for even not choosing is a choice.  Is this free will?  Not really.  I did not chose to be born, for example.  And according to most religions, we cannot even choose when we leave this life.  We make choices within certain boundaries--we are not free to choose what we want to.

It is a difference in opinion as I see consciousness as the single most valuable thing there is. Without it, there is absolutely nothing. The universe, with no one around to observe it, does not exist.

Without free will, you are just a passenger on the road of life. You exhibit no influence over the body you are in. I cannot see how one can find happiness, when they do not find the self valuable.

Offline Baruch

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2018, 09:33:25 PM »
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Most people like to reference the passage they are referring to, if they are trying to have a discussion.

Nobody here will reference scripture, not even me.  I can quote the Enuma Elish however.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2018, 10:05:51 PM »
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It is a difference in opinion as I see consciousness as the single most valuable thing there is. Without it, there is absolutely nothing. The universe, with no one around to observe it, does not exist.

Without free will, you are just a passenger on the road of life. You exhibit no influence over the body you are in. I cannot see how one can find happiness, when they do not find the self valuable.
Yes, it is a difference of opinion.  The old riddle; if a tree falls in the forest, and there is no body to hear it, did it make noise?  Of course it did.  Noise is simply a vibration of the atmosphere; hearing it does not influence that noise in the least.  The universe is here whether I can sense it or not.  My consciousness has no impact upon the universe; the universe is not an entity that can 'sense' us in any way. 

As I see it, we are not simply a stick floating down the river of life.  We make choices and those choices matter--at least to us.  I influence much about my body and my life.  Not all, but a significant amount.  I cannot make any choice I want to, but I can make very important choices for me and my life.  I find the value of myself for myself.  I do not see anybody as valueless.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2018, 10:26:53 PM »
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Yes, it is a difference of opinion.  The old riddle; if a tree falls in the forest, and there is no body to hear it, did it make noise?  Of course it did.  Noise is simply a vibration of the atmosphere; hearing it does not influence that noise in the least.  The universe is here whether I can sense it or not.  My consciousness has no impact upon the universe; the universe is not an entity that can 'sense' us in any way. 

As I see it, we are not simply a stick floating down the river of life.  We make choices and those choices matter--at least to us.  I influence much about my body and my life.  Not all, but a significant amount.  I cannot make any choice I want to, but I can make very important choices for me and my life.  I find the value of myself for myself.  I do not see anybody as valueless.

The universe is but a shared living space for us to interact with. If no one experiences something, it has no value. The universe, before humanity and without God, has no value.

However, to you, the thing that is more powerful and significant, or at least exhibits stronger influence, is the part that has no value. That is the material world.

But what is value, anyway? Perhaps the universe contains value, and it is part of a language that we cannot understand. This argument is meaningless to me, but if you have something to say about it then be my guest.

It takes a conscious being to make decisions, to have thoughts and perceive ideas, and to experience. I see the universe as a program being run by a divine operating system. The physical world is not really real, I interact with it, but it is part of an experience I am sharing with other people. It is some sort of framework for interacting with other souls.

Re: Argument From Consciousness
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2018, 11:16:19 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login I will have to ask you to read the rules before continuing to post. Failure to adhere to the rules will result in consequences.

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