Author Topic: LoTR is Racist!  (Read 1050 times)

Offline Draconic Aiur

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2018, 01:07:31 PM »
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I'm with Shiranu on this. It's a bit racist, but that racism isn't worth being concerned about given the age of the work.

Where is the Earthly racism? Honestly I don't s it. Because Dwarfs are from Norse mythology and are obsessed with treasure. Thy are not Jews like you say they are. Same thing with Farness hes created a world not blindly making racist statements.

As for the Rohirerm, his initial thought was during WWI it was the last time horses were used in war due to technology being better. He's romancing the British Calvary.

The only thing of Tolkien was that he hated atheists.

Offline pr126

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2018, 01:18:38 PM »
In films and TV, there is (for now) the zombies who are the only group is permitted to kill and fight.
Soon there will be an outcry for this travesty. World war Z etc.

#ZombieLives matter.

Yes, it is stupid. But hey, we are used to that.
“We now live in a nation where doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and banks destroy the economy.” – Chris Hedges.

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2018, 02:01:22 PM »
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My thoughts exactly. It's unrealistic to expect someone writing in 1940 to have a 2018 outlook on race, gender, orientation and/or identity. It doesn't excuse it, but it explains why it's there and where it came from, and at least where the work otherwise is of literary value, just means one has to read the work with that in mind.

Of course, it's more than just racism -- homophobia (or at least heteronormativity), sexism, religious and irreligious intolerance, and all the other forms of intraspecies hatred and division can just go under the catch-all term 'bigotry'.

It's been over a decade since I've read the books, so I can't remember. But didn't a woman kill one of the most powerful villains in the series, or was that just a movie thing?

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"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline trdsf

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2018, 02:54:46 PM »
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It's been over a decade since I've read the books, so I can't remember. But didn't a woman kill one of the most powerful villains in the series, or was that just a movie thing?

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Absolutely no idea. I never finished reading the first book in the trilogy, much less any of the others. I found it impenetrably dull. When I call Tolkien the Dickens of fantasy fiction, I don't mean it as a compliment.  But I've seen implicit (and explicit) bigotry in any number of other works from the period -- and not just Lovecraft, where it was overt.  I mean, just spend some time looking at portrayals of the Japanese in wartime comics, of Native Americans in most westerns, of African-Americans (or just Africans) in almost any genre at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. That kind of thought was woven into the popular culture of the time.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline Draconic Aiur

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2018, 04:42:55 PM »
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It's been over a decade since I've read the books, so I can't remember. But didn't a woman kill one of the most powerful villains in the series, or was that just a movie thing?

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Eowyn did in the book.


Online Munch

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2018, 05:45:21 PM »
they changed what she said in the book, but she faced the witch king either way.

Quote
But lo! suddenly in the midst of the glory of the king his golden shield was dimmed.... Dark fell about him....

Snowmane wild with terror stood up on high, fighting with the air, and then with a great scream he crashed upon his side: a black dart had pierced him. The king fell beneath him.

The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank.... Down, down it came, and then, folding its fingered webs, it gave a croaking cry, and settled upon the body of Snowmane, digging in its claws, stooping its long naked neck.

Upon it sat a shape, black-mantled, huge and threatening. A crown of steel he bore, but between rim and robe naught was there to see, save only a deadly gleam of eyes: the Lord of the Nazgûl.... bringing ruin, turning hope to despair, and victory to death. A great black mace he wielded.

But Théoden was not utterly forsaken. The knights of his house lay slain about him.... Yet one stood there still: Dernhelm the young, faithful beyond fear; and he wept, for he had loved his lord as a father. Right through the charge Merry had been borne unharmed behind him, until the Shadow came; and then Windfola had thrown them in his terror.... Merry crawled on all fours like a dazed beast, and such a horror was on him that he was blind and sick.... He dared not open his eyes or look up.

Then out of the blackness in his mind he thought that he heard Dernhelm speaking; yet now the voice seemed strange, recalling some other voice that he had known.

'Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!'

A cold voice answered: 'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

A sword rang as it was drawn. 'Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.'

'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed.... 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'

The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt. Very amazement for a moment conquered Merry's fear. He opened his eyes and the blackness was lifted from them. There some paces from him sat the great beast..., and above it loomed the Nazgûl Lord like a shadow of despair. A little to the left facing them stood she whom he had called Dernhelm. But the helm of her secrecy had fallen from her, and her bright hair... gleamed with pale gold upon her shoulders. Her eyes grey as the sea were hard and fell, and yet tears were on her cheek. A sword was in her hand, and she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy's eyes.

Éowyn it was, and Dernhelm also. For into Merry's mind flashed the memory of the face that he saw at the riding from Dunharrow: the face of one that goes seeking death, having no hope. Pity filled his heart..., and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate. At least she should not die alone, unaided.

The face of their enemy was not turned towards him, but still he hardly dared to move.... Slowly, slowly he began to crawl aside; but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him, heeded him no more than a worm in the mud.

Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings.... Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Éowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw.

Still she did not blench: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings..., fair but terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise.

Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.

But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.

'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground...; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing..., a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.

Offline Baruch

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2018, 07:07:02 PM »
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Eowyn did in the book.

Eowyn and her gay Halfling side-kick, Merry.  The chief of the Dark Riders was killed by two non-men.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2018, 01:19:16 AM »
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they changed what she said in the book, but she faced the witch king either way.

Eh. The movie's version of Eowyn's words may have sounded silly, but it was a lot more concise. But anyway, a woman slaying a nazgul and the most powerful Ringwraith kinda played against popular conventions, at least at the time. I guess that was kind of the whole point, though. The main hero of the story was a weak little Hobbit after all; a man the size of a human child. The ringbearer could only be someone who was too weak to misuse the ring. You could give the ring to Gandalf, but then he might be corrupted by the power of the ring and become a powerful force for evil. There seems to be a message there, of the importance of humility, and not underestimating what people can accomplish. Given that Tolkien was a devout Christian, this was probably based on the Christian concept of "the first will be last, and the last will be first."
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline Draconic Aiur

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2018, 02:16:59 AM »
He also gave that Gimili and Legolas who were racists became best of friends. Tolkein had friends who were Jewish and despised Nazi Germany. So he wasn't racist. SJW just seem to take everything literally like Black wizard and White wizard and troll/ human is blackish skin so obviously Tolkin is a racist. No. Go else where with your antics!

Offline pr126

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2018, 02:34:18 AM »
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He also gave that Gimili and Legolas who were racists became best of friends. Tolkein had friends who were Jewish and despised Nazi Germany. So he wasn't racist. SJW just seem to take everything literally like Black wizard and White wizard and troll/ human is blackish skin so obviously Tolkin is a racist. No. Go else where with your antics!

Two words: Critical theory.
Two more: Frankfurt School.
“We now live in a nation where doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and banks destroy the economy.” – Chris Hedges.

Online Shiranu

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2018, 05:28:39 AM »
Quote
The ringbearer could only be someone who was too weak to misuse the ring.

That's never how I have really interpreted it... I felt it was much more a story of someone being so content with life that the desire for power it corrupts people with didn't have as strong of effect on him. Frodo damn near kills Sam because of the ring's corruption in Gondor, so I don't think it's a matter of physical strength.

It corrupted Gollum whom was a Hobbit, and the palantir was able to corrupt Merry (or Pippin, a bit too drunk to remember atm). Also, Hobbits are surprisingly strong and hardy when forced into a fight.
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Offline pr126

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2018, 09:56:08 AM »
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And while we at it, #FloodLivesMatter.

The 343 Industries Halo where the Flood is killed mercilessly by the Forerunners, humans, everyone.

Oh and lets not forget the Elites, Brutes, Jackals, Unggoy, San'Shyuum, the Covenant.
How racist can you get? /sarc
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 10:40:49 AM by pr126 »
“We now live in a nation where doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and banks destroy the economy.” – Chris Hedges.

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2018, 10:19:15 AM »
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It is kind of interesting how races in worlds like the LoTR and D&D are naturally good or evil.
Not all of Sauron's troops were "naturally evil". Faramir wondered what lies they were told.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2018, 10:26:15 AM »
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Eh. The movie's version of Eowyn's words may have sounded silly, but it was a lot more concise. But anyway, a woman slaying a nazgul and the most powerful Ringwraith kinda played against popular conventions, at least at the time.
Shades of Boadicea
Quote
I guess that was kind of the whole point, though. The main hero of the story was a weak little Hobbit after all; a man the size of a human child. The ringbearer could only be someone who was too weak to misuse the ring.
Or someone who didn't seek power.
Quote
You could give the ring to Gandalf, but then he might be corrupted by the power of the ring and become a powerful force for evil.
"But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: LoTR is Racist!
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2018, 12:49:56 PM »
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That's never how I have really interpreted it... I felt it was much more a story of someone being so content with life that the desire for power it corrupts people with didn't have as strong of effect on him. Frodo damn near kills Sam because of the ring's corruption in Gondor, so I don't think it's a matter of physical strength.

It corrupted Gollum whom was a Hobbit, and the palantir was able to corrupt Merry (or Pippin, a bit too drunk to remember atm). Also, Hobbits are surprisingly strong and hardy when forced into a fight.

Anyone who touches the ring would be corrupted by it. It was only natural that Frodo wouldn't be able to go through with the plan of destroying the ring. That's not what I meant, though. The ring's power scales with the power of the person who uses it. Gandalf couldn't touch the ring because he was already a powerful wizard, and the ring would just make him unstoppable. He rejected the offer of the ring in terror of what he knew he was capable of. Galadriel was tempted by the offer of the ring as well, but she refused it for similar reasons. Frodo was just a hobbit. No magical abilities, very little physical strength. The only thing he could do with the ring was turn invisible, which is apparently an extension of a Hobbit's natural stealth ability. With the ring in the hands of Frodo, the world was not threatened. Only Frodo himself was at risk.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

 

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