Author Topic: Ocasio-Cortez + Liberals Believing Conservatives About What Liberals Believe/Do  (Read 1375 times)

Offline Baruch

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Nothing that costs anything is free, so don't write nonsensical statements.  What you are objecting to is SHARED costs for health care, education, housing, And open borders.

First, shared costs is the basis for all health care.  We already do that, inefficiently, through commercial health insurance.  We could do more, better, by expanding that and cutting out the profit centers.  And if you want to scream that profit centers are good and should never die, I will start a candle business and claim recompense from the electric companies.

Second, education is generally considered a benefit to society.  An educated populace is a benefit to all of us.  Yes, there are private basic K-12 schools, but studies show they do worse overall at educating and cost more.

Third, housing is a basic demand for all people.  Everyone has to be "somewhere" and a home of any sort makes people more legal and less likely to feel forced to commit crimes to survive.

Open borders are a different thing entirely.  I agree that any nation has a right to control it's borders and immigration.  That doesn't mean tricking people seeking asylum into crossing borders illegally and taking away their children.  We brought much of that on ourselves by eliminating the abiilty of immigrants to apply for asylum at embassies and consulates.  That was a mean dirty trick that leads to illegal crossings.

And you should consider that the US is facing a lack of workers to do jobs citizens will not apply for.  We NEED immigrants.  They are willing to start by working at the bottom.  Do YOU want to clean hotel toilets?  Do YOU want to pick grapes?  They will.  And their children will be just like us: doctors, lawyers, and store-owners.

We take in 3 million per year.  You want that to be 3 billion?  That isn't what was being argued.  Give all your money away to your fellow man, humanitarian.  Shiranu can't but you can.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 06:50:29 AM by Baruch »
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

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Yeah, the line can be blurred sometimes.

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Interesting read, illigals fucking things up for legal migration. Why is it fair to have people who respect the country their moving to enough to apply for a visa be cast off because some disrespectful asshats don't even care enough to do that?

If the person trying to move to that country won't ever fill out paperwork, that country owes them nothing.

Ends justify the means, for all people, Left or Right.  Because fairness is a value that humans don't have.  In fact unfairness is the very basis of civilization (labor differentiation started 5000 years ago).
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline trdsf

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This is something that has bothered me for awhile, but it has taken AOC's recent harassment by some Democrats to help me put my finger on it, and then seeing this thread to really put it into words.

Every time an actual progressive makes waves, the response from the right is predictable; they are a communist, they are Marxists, they are radicals, bla bla blah. This is expected. What shouldn't be expected and yet seems incredibly common is how often other progressives and liberals will then start to agree with the conservatives, even though what they are agreeing on is condemning someone for holding the same positions they do... and more often than not the entire condemnation is based on either extremely bending the truth or outright lying about what actually happened.

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For as long as I have been following progressive politics in America, this has been something I have seen happen time and time again, and frankly it's ridiculous. America is a conservative country, so it's no surprise our media leans conservative. But what progressives have got to start doing is looking at the actual reality of what is going on and stop bad mouthing our own representatives based on what we are told they said vs what they actually said and did.

I have never been a big fan of Pelosi, and I think in large part that is because I have been constantly fed a certain narrative about her without ever actually being exposed to her actions and her words. I certainly need to do much more research about her now to see how much I need to readjust my position on her.

I make it a point to not give a rat's ass what a modern conservative thinks liberals believe, and you're as likely to get a fair appraisal of liberalism from a neocon as you are to get a fair appraisal of Islam from pr126.  I do differentiate between types of conservatives β€” a classical Eisenhower/Ford/Goldwater conservative (what few remain) can be talked to and with, even if no consensus is reached; a modern conservative/neocon cannot.  You can't have a productive conversation with someone who starts (as I have seen done) with "You socialist cucks…"

By the same token, if you want to know what a conservative (modern or classical) believes, don't ask me, ask them.  I can only give you what I think about their actual statements and actions.

As for Pelosi β€” on the one hand, I would like a more confrontational Speaker than she has been... but on the other hand, she managed to hold the House together to get the ACA passed.  The Orange Disaster Area's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login is a fine bit of political theater, although I strongly doubt he could deliver on the promise considering how viciously the GOP (and Lord Dampnut particularly) have attacked her, even as recently as two weeks ago.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Offline Cavebear

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I make it a point to not give a rat's ass what a modern conservative thinks liberals believe, and you're as likely to get a fair appraisal of liberalism from a neocon as you are to get a fair appraisal of Islam from pr126.  I do differentiate between types of conservatives β€” a classical Eisenhower/Ford/Goldwater conservative (what few remain) can be talked to and with, even if no consensus is reached; a modern conservative/neocon cannot.  You can't have a productive conversation with someone who starts (as I have seen done) with "You socialist cucks…"

By the same token, if you want to know what a conservative (modern or classical) believes, don't ask me, ask them.  I can only give you what I think about their actual statements and actions.

As for Pelosi β€” on the one hand, I would like a more confrontational Speaker than she has been... but on the other hand, she managed to hold the House together to get the ACA passed.  The Orange Disaster Area's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login is a fine bit of political theater, although I strongly doubt he could deliver on the promise considering how viciously the GOP (and Lord Dampnut particularly) have attacked her, even as recently as two weeks ago.

I'm with TRDSF on this.  I don't pay attention to popularity of politicians, I don't follow promises made in campaigns.  I pay attention to what candidates did before running for a particular office.  I watch what they have done, not what they say they WILL do.  And I watch who they are beholden to.  I look for stands they took before on difficult issues. 

Etc...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

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I'm with TRDSF on this.  I don't pay attention to popularity of politicians, I don't follow promises made in campaigns.  I pay attention to what candidates did before running for a particular office.  I watch what they have done, not what they say they WILL do.  And I watch who they are beholden to.  I look for stands they took before on difficult issues. 

Etc...

Good reasoning, actually.  But it is important to not know that before voting, because it would discourage many so well qualified candidates (criminals).
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Cavebear

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Good reasoning, actually.  But it is important to not know that before voting, because it would discourage many so well qualified candidates (criminals).

Check my new avatar statement, Baruch.  I think you are a complete loon, but you nailed me on that.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

You're not "a typical," so you're atypical.


LOL
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"Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child,"
Ecclesiastes 10:16
Or: Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is batshit crazy.

Offline Cavebear

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You're not "a typical," so you're atypical.


LOL

What a massive difference a space makes!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

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Check my new avatar statement, Baruch.  I think you are a complete loon, but you nailed me on that.

Not a typical anything?  Parents have their babies pose naked on top of you, for photos?

If you thought you were a palm tree instead, you would be tropical ;-)
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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