Author Topic: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side  (Read 812 times)

Online Shiranu

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-Ancient Civilizations and all the historical and mythological ramifications of that which were knocked out in the same era that "mythic" places like Atlantis got destroyed due to a comet hitting the Earth around 13,000 years ago.


-Science tend to ignore this as well as ignore the fact that just because we "know" there are no comets near us, we won't be hit by one... despite the fact that spotting a comet is not exactly the most easy thing to do in the world, nor one we accurately do with multiple "Near Miss" comets not being seen until about 10 days before they flew past us.


-Twice a year, we fly through the broken up remains of a comet that struck the Earth.


-We have the technology to address cataclysmic contact, and we could making massive amounts of money on it, yet instead we want to close our eyes and pretend it won't happen or didn't happen before, and this is largely in part to the "Secularism", or rather the anti-theist ideology that dictated how top scientists view mythology but also our past.


I definitely recommend just watching a few minutes of the beginning and seeing if they interest you if any of those things sounded interesting.
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Offline Baruch

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2018, 07:37:09 AM »
Fact is, a comet can have a big impact at the time, and leave no crater.  See the Siberian event of 100 years ago.  Of course early people wouldn't articulate the experience of that, in modern terms.  In very early Indian mythology there are things that sound like volcanic eruptions and tidal waves ... things we know actually happen in India, or nearby in Indonesia.

The Exodus story clearly seems to relate natural disaster events ... though it probably didn't happen all at once, or as described.  But I don't denigrate the imaginations of early people, who describe things in their own culture, or reuse unrelated events to make a good story.  Whether or not the Santorini volcanic eruption is the main idea behind Atlantis or not, I don't know.  There is more than one candidate.  Another being just on the other side of the Pillars of Hercules in S Spain ... which sounds more like a tidal wave tragedy.

There was a tidal wave disaster in Indonesia just this past month ... can you imagine the stories that would come out of that, in the hands of a good storyteller?
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2018, 08:22:50 AM »
It's not up to science to debunk claims of "ancient civilizations", it's up to the claimant to prove their case. Having followed this kind of thing since the 1960s I see that the current available "evidence" doesn't stand up to inspection. It consists mostly of "gotchas".
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Online Shiranu

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2018, 09:39:23 AM »
Quote
It's not up to science to debunk claims of "ancient civilizations", it's up to the claimant to prove their case.

That's what they are doing, and science admits that alot of it seems to be right... it's just not accepted into the mainstream curriculum. Everything they say essentially fit's all of today's geological historical models, but the geological models crash with what people want to be right so it get's ignored or reworded to fit the existing train of thought rather than expands on it.

That's not particularly rare for either science or history.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 09:42:36 AM by Shiranu »
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Online Shiranu

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2018, 09:55:56 AM »
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Quote
"It’s not the fabled Atlantis, but it is tantalizing: Researchers studying the Mediterranean’s Sicilian Channel, an area now underwater but partially exposed as recently as 9,000 years ago, found a 40-foot-long monolith, broken in two, with uniform, regularly spaced holes that could not be explained through any natural process. Analysis confirmed the monolith was quarried from a rock formation about 1,000 feet from its resting place.

The Sicilian Channel, where the monolith was discovered, has experienced great variation in sea level. About 19,000 years ago, water levels were 130 meters lower than now (red line). When the monolith was quarried, levels were roughly 50 meters lower than today.

These stone structures were placed there, at least, 9,000 years ago... these are not simple stone structures but monoliths that involve carving and inserting other rocks into them. That requires craftsmen, which requires civilizations... and civilization that is relatively quite advanced compared to hunters and gatherers. That is, at least, 5,000 years older than the oldest known civilizations, and then you also have Gobekli Tepe which was built around 10-8,000 bc... again, at least 4,000 years before the first known Mesopotamian civilizations.

There is also evidence that the English Isles had proper civilizations before the Romans came, and that this idea of them as being tribal barbarians is purely a Roman exaggeration and slandering. These are people that stood up to the Roman Empire for a very long time... do you really think people without civilization could do that?
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2018, 10:57:26 AM »
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That's what they are doing, and science admits that alot of it seems to be right... it's just not accepted into the mainstream curriculum. Everything they say essentially fit's all of today's geological historical models, but the geological models crash with what people want to be right so it get's ignored or reworded to fit the existing train of thought rather than expands on it.

That's not particularly rare for either science or history.
Yes.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Online Shiranu

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2018, 03:33:03 PM »
The model of human history is already wrong; we put civilization around 5000 Bc, and yet we have signs of civilization that go back 9000 and earlier BC.

The geological record, the mythos of early civilizations, the sudden surge in technology all point to civilizations having existed before 12,800, when a cataclysmic event wiped out the majority of mankind.

Likewise a lot of the pre-Cataclysmic civilization, or immediately post, are located in Africa and the surrounding area, which is consistent with the model of humans migrating out of the continent. If it's where humans originated, it only stands to reason that civilization would develop there first.
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2018, 04:06:13 PM »
You know that archeology isn't static, right?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Online Shiranu

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2018, 05:06:45 PM »
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You know that archeology isn't static, right?

Yes, which means when geological record and mythological record are consistent with a cataclysmic event possible of wiping out civilization, we should try to incorporate that and learn from it, particularly when new (90s, 2015) archeological evidence questions the existing model.


The current archeological record indicates that the 5000 BC Mesopotamia origin of civilization is wrong. The geological record are consistent with a cataclysmic wipe out. The mythological record collaborates this happened at roughly the same time.


I would say at this point the burden of proof is on the people who insist that civilization originated in Mesopotamia around 5000 years ago, even taking out the idea of a cataclysmic wipe out, given how much evidence points to older civilizations in India, China, and Turkey. And yet that's the dominate theory of human history.


This is not some irrelevant topic, this is perhaps the single most important question one can ask about humanity...



« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 05:19:37 PM by Shiranu »
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2018, 05:38:23 PM »
Seriously? Try not to hyperfocus.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Online Shiranu

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2018, 06:20:14 PM »
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Seriously? Try not to hyperfocus.

I'm guessing continuing to provide evidence, or pointing out that even by the current model there are discrepancies thanks to Gobekli Tepe and other "pre-civilization" ruins, will just be met with, "nuh uh!"?
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Offline trdsf

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2018, 07:11:43 PM »
I think I'll wait for evidence of early civilization that's better than "Huh, that's weird."  An isolated monolith does not a protocivilization make; it lacks context.  A civilization capable of mining and moving a monolith of that scale should have left other traces somewhere; if and when those are identified, then there's a decent case for early civilization.  Color me open-minded but not yet convinced.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2018, 07:33:25 PM »
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I'm guessing continuing to provide evidence, or pointing out that even by the current model there are discrepancies thanks to Gobekli Tepe and other "pre-civilization" ruins, will just be met with, "nuh uh!"?

You would be guessing.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Online Shiranu

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2018, 07:55:15 PM »
Gobekli Tepe is a full-sized temple complex, with relatively advanced architecture and art work, that predates civilization by 5000 years.

Dwarka, a city that is mentioned in the Hindu epics, is believed to have been found off the coast of India... The ruins again predate civilization by about 4000 years.

The Sphinx is believed to predate the Pyramids by many years, perhaps by thousands, which puts it's construction possibly before the Mesopotamian civilizations.

There is evidence that the British isles had a full on civilization before the Romans, that they had independently developed farming and simple societies thousands of years ago, but this is largely ignored because it doesn't fit the barbarian stereotype of British history.

This is not just a weird monolith... These are entire sites being discovered that clash with the current mainstream model. These are sites that coincide with mythological cities. These are cultures that the ancients talked about coming before them.

Think about how little we know of the Bronze Age, and yet that was not a cataclysmic event but rather a rapid collapse of society. Look at how little survived of those societies, and yet they were empire's and cultures that interacted from central Europe to East Asia and had extensive trade relationships amongst them.

Our current model of human civilization is based on work from the 1800s. The world as we know it has changed significantly since then. The geological, archeological, historical/mythological evidence all points to this being possible.

It's never good to have a mind so open your brain falls out, but a mind so skeptical it would deny reality if it questions it's conceptions is no more useful. The simple truth is that, regardless of if you buy the idea of these ancient civilizations or not, the current model becomes more and more flawed as more and more evidence points to humanity being civilized longer than we realised.

That is a discovery as monumental as the Earth revolving around the sun, and it's being met with the same skepticism because it doesn't fit the accepted models. But if skeptics want to argue Ocams Razor when it's convenient, then they must also accept it when it's not; this model is the least complicated and simplest theory with the evidence we have, and it requires less mental gymnastics than thinking these pre-civilization ruins were built by hunter gatherers (neither the numbers nor the resources to build them), or that our ancestors were just making shit up when they talked about people before them.
"Judge a moth by the beauty of its candle." - Rumi

Re: Joe Rogan & Guests on Ancient Civilizations, Sciences' Intolerant Side
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2018, 07:55:56 PM »
Keep wavin' that banner, dude.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

 

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