Author Topic: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.  (Read 878 times)

Online Munch

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2018, 07:42:13 AM »
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Of course you do, and that's why you are a dye-in-the-wool conservative, no matter how much you protest that you are a moderate. You are fundamentally opposed to essentially anything that ever runs contrary to your status quo. 

Of course I'm conservative.. to you. Your so far left anything who remotely disagrees with you is to the right of your sociological opinion.

Mostly I'm opposed to you though, because I value reasonable balance of ideas rather then screeching one track single minded social and political views.

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I have been very clear that I spend time working at the border with immigrant families, and predominately women and children. I have paid my share, and I still don't feel the need to hold it over people's head that they "aren't doing enough".

good for you, and I give cans and dry foods to sainsburys food drives here to help the local shelters. hooray for me.

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No one individual can do enough, that's the entire point of the government... to achieve things as a collective that we cant as individuals. I could literally spend every single second of my life from here on till my death helping these families, but at the end of the day it wouldn't mean much because the fundamental issues with immigration will be resolved by popular opinion and electing sympathetic politicians, not through hard work or individualism.

your so concerned with helping people coming into the place you live, have you ever looked back at the people already there in need of help? And have you ever considered how much worse it would be for those people if all focus goes into people flooding from other lands if all aid effort went into them?

I suppose not, since you kinda hate people around you, rather would imagine a utopia like from a 1960s art piece.

 
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Yeah, maybe because Obama didn't detain 13,000 children.

you really are fucking naive. obama stands as the president who deported more immigrants then any other president.

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Your cognitive dissonance stems from a simple premise 'He's black and a democrat, so he must have been a good guy!'
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 07:44:01 AM by Munch »

Offline Cavebear

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2018, 08:23:21 AM »
I am dissapointed with you Munch.  If the right wing had its way, you would be locked up.  They HATE people like you.

I'm glad you give food to shelters.

The Obama administration did deport many illegal immigrants, but they never separated parents from children as a strategy.

About "the people already there in need of help", the Trump administration has done far worse.
 
About "'He's black and a democrat, so he must have been a good guy!' ", you should be ashamed about that.  I did vote for Obama but not because he was black or a democrat.  I voted for him in the primaries because he was smart as Hillary but showed more promise as a leader.  I voted for him over McCain only because there were 2 really good candidates and I had to choose one.   And McCain had both Palin and the rest of the Republican party dragging his coat-tails.

I could go on.  But I won't. 
 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2018, 08:51:00 AM »
Must every problem be framed in terms of partisan politics? I think we can all agree that holding children in an internment camp is a bad outcome. People from whatever political persuasion should be telling their representatives this situation is unacceptable and we need a better solution.
“You are the sky. Everything else – it’s just the weather.”

― Pema Chödrön

Offline Cavebear

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2018, 09:47:48 AM »
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Must every problem be framed in terms of partisan politics? I think we can all agree that holding children in an internment camp is a bad outcome. People from whatever political persuasion should be telling their representatives this situation is unacceptable and we need a better solution.

It doesn't have to be.  I don't.  But when one partisan political group makes it so, it is unless you can ignore them.  And they won't permit being ignored on any mater, no matter how trivial. 

If I flipped a coin to decide a matter of close dispute, one side (Democrats) would say "it was a fair coin flip".  The other side (Republicans) would challenge the morals of the person flipping the coin, challenge the coin, and challenge whether the results were cheated.

I used to be a Republican.  That's why I understand how they play the game.  They cheat "for the better good of themselves".  Democrats play Bridge politely; Republicans play poker and deal from the bottom of the deck. And they will take a few of your chips while you go and bring back snacks for all.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline SGOS

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2018, 11:23:08 AM »
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Nobody cared when Obama was in control.

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Yeah, maybe because Obama didn't detain 13,000 children.

Or people didn't know about it.

I don't know how many Obama detained.  I never heard about it until Trump was in office.  I admit ignorance, which is no excuse, but it kind of is, because I rely heavily on information from sources outside myself.

The trope is an old one and a lame one, that it's liberal attack on Trump, because liberals didn't attack Obama.  But I think it more likely that few people knew about it, including the right wing who likes to pretend it was common knowledge all along, especially if they think it justifies Trump's actions, which of course it doesn't.  It's just a shot at liberals, a shot at Obama, although it's actual support for Obama when you think about it, because he was doing what they now think is the right thing, even if they never said that 4 years ago.  What they don't offer is something better, just sniping.  Not that the Democrats are innocent angels by any means.

Knowledge of past events aside, it was an ethically questionable policy.  And if Obama did detain 13,000, he should not escape political judgment, and if Obama did escape political judgment, it's an incredibly lame argument to justify Trump's actions today.  Obama is not the president.  Trump is!  And people have every right to question our governments policies.  Especially when this kind of thing becomes known.  When it's not known, there's not much that will be done.

We could start by examining the policy.  Is it justified or just cruel?  Is there a better way to do it?  And for god's sake, get the frickin' facts right.  That's the problem with most political arguments.  They begin and end with, "Who's at fault?  Who's the biggest dick?  And it's heavily weighted by bullshit passed off as "alternative facts."  Most of all, it avoids the real issue.

Offline Cavebear

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2018, 11:40:26 AM »
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Or people didn't know about it.

I don't know how many Obama detained.  I never heard about it until Trump was in office.  I admit ignorance, which is no excuse, but it kind of is, because I rely heavily on information from sources outside myself.

The trope is an old one and a lame one, that it's liberal attack on Trump, because liberals didn't attack Obama.  But I think it more likely that few people knew about it, including the right wing who likes to pretend it was common knowledge all along, especially if they think it justifies Trump's actions, which of course it doesn't.  It's just a shot at liberals, a shot at Obama, although it's actual support for Obama when you think about it, because he was doing what they now think is the right thing, even if they never said that 4 years ago.  What they don't offer is something better, just sniping.  Not that the Democrats are innocent angels by any means.

Knowledge of past events aside, it was an ethically questionable policy.  And if Obama did detain 13,000, he should not escape political judgment, and if Obama did escape political judgment, it's an incredibly lame argument to justify Trump's actions today.  Obama is not the president.  Trump is!  And people have every right to question our governments policies.  Especially when this kind of thing becomes known.  When it's not known, there's not much that will be done.

We could start by examining the policy.  Is it justified or just cruel?  Is there a better way to do it?  And for god's sake, get the frickin' facts right.  That's the problem with most political arguments.  They begin and end with, "Who's at fault?  Who's the biggest dick?  And it's heavily weighted by bullshit passed off as "alternative facts."  Most of all, it avoids the real issue.

OK, how many illegal immigrant children do YOU think the Obama Administration detained in 8 years and how many the same do you think Trump did in 20 months?  I'm not even asking for sources.  Just how many would be your best guess.

And I haven't looked it up either.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Hydra009

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2018, 11:42:51 AM »
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Must every problem be framed in terms of partisan politics? I think we can all agree that holding children in an internment camp is a bad outcome. People from whatever political persuasion should be telling their representatives this situation is unacceptable and we need a better solution.
Ideally, that's true.

However, it was a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue.  Now we have to live with the fallout of millions of seemingly decent people suddenly being okay with holding children in an internment camp.

It's disturbing by what can be legitimized this way.  It's like the Milligram experiment except we're all being tested 24/7 and a good chunk of us failed miserably.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 11:45:48 AM by Hydra009 »

Offline Cavebear

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2018, 11:54:13 AM »
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Ideally, that's true.

However, it was a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue.  Now we have to live with the fallout of millions of seemingly decent people suddenly being okay with holding children in an internment camp.

It's disturbing by what can be legitimized this way.  It's like the Milligram experiment except we're all being tested 24/7 and a good chunk of us failed miserably.

One political party says 1+17+18. The other says it equals 19.  Therefore, because there is a difference, it must be a partisan controversy.

No.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Hydra009

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2018, 12:01:55 PM »
How people ought to react =/= how people do react

Offline Cavebear

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2018, 12:04:26 PM »
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How people ought to react =/= how people do react

Well, "yes", but how people DO react is the problem.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Hydra009

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2018, 12:05:56 PM »
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Well, "yes", but how people DO react is the problem.
That's my point! ><

Offline Cavebear

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2018, 12:29:20 PM »
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That's my point! ><

But you earlier referred to "a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue."

You can't have it both ways...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2018, 01:03:15 PM »
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But you earlier referred to "a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue."

You can't have it both ways...

Partisanship comes from the barrel of a gun ... logic has nothing to do with it - to misquote Mao.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2018, 01:05:25 PM »
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Ideally, that's true.

However, it was a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue.  Now we have to live with the fallout of millions of seemingly decent people suddenly being okay with holding children in an internment camp.

It's disturbing by what can be legitimized this way.  It's like the Milligram experiment except we're all being tested 24/7 and a good chunk of us failed miserably.

The US is the Milgram experiment ... a failed state.  We love violence ... just ask the Vietnamese or the Iraqis.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: 13,000 Immigrant Children Detained in U.S.
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2018, 01:08:06 PM »
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Well, "yes", but how people DO react is the problem.

You could adopt quite a few more children than Shiranu.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

 

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