Author Topic: Is the future already written?  (Read 2733 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 06:53:13 AM »
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May I point out that, by you suggesting the past is not real "viewing the past as "real", and then saying "We should certainly learn from the past", you are contradicting your argument?

Per trdsf ... there is an expanding light wave, where it is always 9/11, the towers are falling, somewhere in the universe, ever since it actually happened.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Baruch

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 06:54:12 AM »
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I never denied it existed or that it wasn't real when it happened, only that it no longer exists nor is real any longer... the past is just an abstract interpretation of what once was which can never be as "real" as what is.

That felt like some "Alice In Wonderland" trying to write that...

We constantly reinterpret that past, with new lessons each time ... per our current prejudice.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline SGOS

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 09:21:03 AM »
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In my perspective...

Yes, they happened. That's it. Their consequences might still reverberate through the present, but they no longer exist, are no longer real entities.

By viewing the past as "real".........
I don't think Cavebear would have protested if you had said, "The past WAS real," which is how I interpreted what you were trying to say.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2018, 10:01:20 AM »
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I don't think Cavebear would have protested if you had said, "The past WAS real," which is how I interpreted what you were trying to say.

Nailed it!

Thank you.

Let's say you know an event in your immediate present in detail.  I mean something right down to the color of the marble in a game.  In the future, that will be the past.  And Shiranu says that wasn't "real"?  Of course it is.  It may not be replicatable, but it was actually true in the past.

I admire you both.  But that is the present for me as I type this.  Will it be true in the future?  My past statement will be, because it was true then.  And so it will have been true in the future because it was true then.  But maybe not in the future if I change my opinion about either or both of you sometime ahead of when I type this.  Like tomorrow.

I love timespeak...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2018, 12:52:25 PM »
What was, is no more.  Your memories are elderberry wine induced.  Artifacts have ambitious interpretation.  Why do people bother with history?  Confirmation bias of their current politics.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2018, 07:36:05 AM »
If indeterminism is true then there are many possible futures. So any particular possible future is not already written.

If determinism is true there is only one possible future... and that future is therefore written.

But whether determinism is true or false... the future is written. Because the future refers to whatever will happen. If there are many possible futures, and it isn't determined which will happen, then whichever future does happen is the future. That future must happen. So the future is always already written no matter what.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2018, 07:42:01 AM »
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If indeterminism is true then there are many possible futures. So any particular possible future is not already written.

If determinism is true there is only one possible future... and that future is therefore written.

But whether determinism is true or false... the future is written. Because the future refers to whatever will happen. If there are many possible futures, and it isn't determined which will happen, then whichever future does happen is the future. That future must happen. So the future is always already written no matter what.

I think you slipped a gear there.  The future is not pre-determined.  It can be be created by actions in the present at any time.   There are many possible futures.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2018, 07:53:34 AM »
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I think you slipped a gear there.  The future is not pre-determined.  It can be be created by actions in the present at any time.   There are many possible futures.

I didn't slip a gear.

Regardless of whether determinism or indeterminism is true... the future=whatever will happen. The future is unavoidable and inevitable.

By "already written" all I mean is "it's going to happen". The future is going to happen. Regardless of whether it's determined or not. That's all I mean.

I'm not interested in predestinationism or the idea of a future literally being written in the stars as I think those viewpoints are just silly as they have absolutely no rational basis.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2018, 08:04:27 AM »
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I didn't slip a gear.

Regardless of whether determinism or indeterminism is true... the future=whatever will happen. The future is unavoidable and inevitable.

By "already written" all I mean is "it's going to happen". The future is going to happen. Regardless of whether it's determined or not. That's all I mean.

I'm not interested in predestinationism or the idea of a future literally being written in the stars as I think those viewpoints are just silly as they have absolutely no rational basis.

See, that's where you are not quite catching on.  When you say "The future is unavoidable and inevitable" you give yourself away as believing in religious pre-determination.

Thank you...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Online Hydra009

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2018, 10:36:49 AM »
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The future is not pre-determined.  It can be be created by actions in the present at any time.   There are many possible futures.
Maybe.  Maybe not.  No one's been able to rewind the clock and choose differently, which is afaik the only way to prove that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2018, 12:02:46 PM »
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Maybe.  Maybe not.  No one's been able to rewind the clock and choose differently, which is afaik the only way to prove that.

Alternative history is an interesting way to examine the effects of the past to the present.  What if Hitler hadn't been exposed to WWI gas because of his large mustache?  What if the Vikings had established successful colonies in NA? What if the H Neandertals had resisted H Sapiens in Europe?  Lots of possibilities.

Some things we can guess at.  Columbus sought support for his initial voyage from many competing kingdoms,  One was sure to support him eventually.  Edison created the light bulb, but others were working on it at the same time,  It was merely 
who first" not "if.  Does it matter which hominoid first thought of pounding a rock to get an edge?

In some instances we can rewind the history clock and get the same results.  But sometimes not.  What if the Christian mobs incited by "St Cyril" Alexandria had NOT burned the Great Library and flayed Hypatia alive.  We MIGHT not have had the Dark Ages to the extent they were and be 1,000 years head of our present. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2018, 12:03:23 PM »
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See, that's where you are not quite catching on.  When you say "The future is unavoidable and inevitable" you give yourself away as believing in religious pre-determination.

Thank you...

No I don't. Because the future is unavoidable and inevitable  regardless of whether determinism or indeterminism is true. And it has nothing to do with religious pre-determination.

The future=what will happen. So to say that the future will happen is simply to say that what will happen will happen. It's a tautology. So of course that's unavoidable and inevitable. It wouldn't make any sense to say that what will happen won't happen whether what will happen is determined or not.

With determinism there is only one possible future but with indeterminism there are multiple possible futures. That's the key difference there.

With predestinationism/religious pre-determinism (as you called it)... that's just a variant of determinism in which the one and only possible future is already picked out by the creator of the universe.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2018, 12:09:52 PM »
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No I don't. Because the future is unavoidable and inevitable  regardless of whether determinism or indeterminism is true. And it has nothing to do with religious pre-determination.

The future=what will happen. So to say that the future will happen is simply to say that what will happen will happen. It's a tautology. So of course that's unavoidable and inevitable. It wouldn't make any sense to say that what will happen won't happen whether what will happen is determined or not.

With determinism there is only one possible future but with indeterminism there are multiple possible futures. That's the key difference there.

With predestinationism/religious pre-determinism (as you called it)... that's just a variant of determinism in which the one and only possible future is already picked out by the creator of the universe.

You say "the future is unavoidable and inevitable" because you believe in a higher power.  No real atheist would say that.  You might want to reconsider your views.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2018, 12:17:37 PM »
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You say "the future is unavoidable and inevitable" because you believe in a higher power.  No real atheist would say that.  You might want to reconsider your views.

No, I do not believe in a higher power. I'm an atheist. I could argue back by saying that you must be a theist because no "real atheist" would say that the future can be something that isn't in the future... because no "real atheist" is that illogical... but unlike yourself I don't wish to invent my own re-definition of the word "atheist". So I'm happy to simply accept that you're an atheist, like myself, but you're an atheist who is being less logical than I am.

Once again, to say that the future isn't inevitable or that it is avoidable... is to say that what will happen won't necessarily happen. That's like saying that a square can have five sides.

Okay... first question: Do you accept my definition that the future is what will happen?

Second question: Do you accept that even if you don't accept that definition, that is the definition I am using, and the definition many people use, and the definition that I have said that I am using?

Third question: Do you accept that once we start from the premise that the definition of the future is what will happen... then to say that it won't necessarily happen is to say that what will happen might not happen?

Fourth question: Do you accept that saying that what will happen might not happen is a contradiction in terms?

Fifth question: Do you accept that something can only be avoided or not be inevitable if such a thing won't necessarily happen no matter what?

« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 12:19:22 PM by luckswallowsall »

Re: Is the future already written?
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2018, 12:28:48 PM »
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Maybe.  Maybe not.  No one's been able to rewind the clock and choose differently, which is afaik the only way to prove that.

The problem with that is even if we did go back and rewind it... we are still only able to live in one actual possible reality... and we can never skip into another one... so I think the whole thing is completely unfalsifiable. A time machine wouldn't do. We're stuck in our empirical reality, and one reality, the actual reality, we can never know if there are any other possible realities, or if this is the only one.



-----


There's three options.

Either there's one possible future.

There's more than one possible future.

Or there's no possible future.

I'm sure we can all agree that the third possibility is absurd as to think that time is about to stop is largely going against the evidence that so far time has never stopped.

So the only realistic possibilities is either that there's one possible future, or more than one possible future.

One possible future=determinism.

More than one possible future=indeterminism.

We indeed can't prove either.

But I'm happy to prefer determinism slightly just due to the principle of parsimony. One possible future is more parsimonious than many possible futures... and we never actually have evidence of more than one (the actual one). More than one possible future could easily exist, but I see no reason to believe that, and like I said, it's completely unfalsifable anyway.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 12:30:33 PM by luckswallowsall »

 

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