Is the future already written?

Started by GSOgymrat, September 10, 2018, 06:21:21 PM

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GSOgymrat

In 1905, Einstein overturned Newton’s harmonious picture of a standard universal time. He replaced it with a discordant, relative view in which different people could disagree about the duration of events, and even the order in which they happened. The young Einstein came to the remarkable realization that time was, in fact, a fourth dimension, alongside the three dimensions of space that we see around us, creating what has become known as the “block universe” picture of reality.

To explain what a block universe looks like, imagine taking successive photographs of a location, such as a series of snapshots of anxious Cambridge students hurrying across the Trinity quadrangle, books in hands, on their way to exams. If you projected the photos one after another, you would make a movie through which time appeared to pass, corresponding to our intuitive view of time’s flow. But if you stack the images on top of each other, you would see the students’ entire journeys across the quadrangle mapped out in front of you, all at once. The second example is similar to the block universe view, where past, present and future all coexist simultaneously, and the passage of time has no meaning; all events coexist side by side. ...

In the block universe, then, what someone perceives as the future is what someone else saw as the past, depending on the person’s position and motion. Events that have yet to happen for one person, it appears, have already happened for another. The future, though it remains unknown to you, seems to be written already. Einstein himself described it thus: “People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”


http://discovermagazine.com/2015/june/18-tomorrow-never-was

The idea of eternalism, that the past, present, and future all equally real and that speed and motion determine our perception of time, makes sense to me. Eternalism seems to be supported by experiments involving high-speed aircraft measuring time variation based on speed and direction. The main arguments I have read objecting to this theory is that 1) it is counterintuitive to our lived experience and 2) it is deterministic and eliminates "free will." I don't think either of these arguments is very strong. What are your thoughts?

Shiranu

If I can neither observe or influence it, I am rather indifferent about it one way or another. The present is the only state of time that will ever exist so long as I exist, so that's all I really need to concern myself with

It is cool to imagine time as it's own dimension though, and it certainly fits the model of the universe that we have.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Baruch

The idea of space-time was invented by Minkowski for local (small time/small distance) situations (like experimental setups), to provide a geometric version of Einstein's algebraic special theory of relativity.  The Lorentz equations have to do with matching up two frames moving at different steady speeds that are recording the same events.  This was fortuitous, because geometry was necessary to generalize it to accelerating frames.

The general theory of relativity is based on the idea that where there is acceleration (where gravity is you always have acceleration) any two frames of reference don't match up over larger distances/times.  It is even called a chart ... each chart being a local space-time map that distorts at the edges (like ordinary Earth maps do).  The Einstein equation has to do with matching up two frames moving under the unsteady influence of gravity that are recording the same events.

So the idea that we move along a world line of already existing events ... is only true locally, not globally.  It is an artifact of the early interpretation of the special theory of relativity.  The smaller the space-time, the more accurate is the analogy.  This is why elementary particle theory is usually unconcerned about gravity.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
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Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Quote from: GSOgymrat on September 10, 2018, 06:21:21 PM
The main arguments I have read objecting to this theory is that 1) it is counterintuitive to our lived experience and 2) it is deterministic and eliminates "free will." I don't think either of these arguments is very strong. What are your thoughts?
I don't think those arguments are very strong, either. One question I do have concerns the existence of "world lines": If quantum particles (such as electrons, etc.) don't have well-defined positions, and can, in fact, be seen as being (in some sense) everywhere at once, then how can they have well-defined world lines? And without those, how can their futures be already determined?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Mr.Obvious

Short answer: yes
Long answer: yes, in comic sans.

No seriously. I personally don't think The future could bE anything different than what te past lead up to. I'm not certain about time and space, but free will certainty seems like an illusion (or a delusion) stemming from lack of perspective. And without choice, The future seems set.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Baruch

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on September 10, 2018, 07:20:23 PM
Short answer: yes
Long answer: yes, in comic sans.

No seriously. I personally don't think The future could bE anything different than what te past lead up to. I'm not certain about time and space, but free will certainty seems like an illusion (or a delusion) stemming from lack of perspective. And without choice, The future seems set.

On a philosophical basis, not a physics basis, I have to disagree to a degree.  We are limited by what reality allows, but that is like being limited to being in a single room, but we are free to move within it.

On the other hand, given limited free will, I am not so sure about blaming and punishment.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Baruch on September 10, 2018, 10:35:34 PM
On a philosophical basis, not a physics basis, I have to disagree to a degree.  We are limited by what reality allows, but that is like being limited to being in a single room, but we are free to move within it.

On the other hand, given limited free will, I am not so sure about blaming and punishment.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe conscience is formed through something either seperate from or at least more than just the physical/material?
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Baruch

#8
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on September 11, 2018, 06:32:25 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe conscience is formed through something either seperate from or at least more than just the physical/material?

You meant consciousness?  No, per Spinoza ... the natural/un-natural aka supernatural are just two sides to one coin.  This was Spinoza's response to Descartes' dualism.  And the mind is much bigger than mere consciousness.  The conscious mind is just the tip of the iceberg.

Conscience is something someone develops, that little voice that tell you, don't do that, or do this.  Something we are free to ignore at our peril (assuming we aren't sociopaths).

To bring Spinoza up to date, you need Kripke Semantics ... and to understand that you have to understand the Basics of Modal Logic I posted last month.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Jjw8oJqBk

Basically I treat "possible worlds" as people, not things.  Each person is a world (not a planet).  A developing world that comes into existence and eventually goes out of existence.  Meanwhile we have various ways of sharing the experience.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Baruch on September 11, 2018, 06:53:14 AM
You meant consciousness?  No, per Spinoza ... the natural/un-natural aka supernatural are just two sides to one coin.  This was Spinoza's response to Descartes' dualism.  And the mind is much bigger than mere consciousness.  The conscious mind is just the tip of the iceberg.

Conscience is something someone develops, that little voice that tell you, don't do that, or do this.  Something we are free to ignore at our peril (assuming we aren't sociopaths).

Aye, consiousness. My bad. :)

But consciousness, and the subconscious, would then all be formed and determined by 'the room' we walk in, no? And by our previous experiences in the room, down to the smallest seemingly insignificant detail.  Even if we don't understand correctly how, it is being formed and shaped; which will Always lead to whatever it is building up to. 

My view, at least. I can predict we're not going to come to an agreement on this, however.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Baruch

#10
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on September 11, 2018, 07:10:27 AM
Aye, consiousness. My bad. :)

But consciousness, and the subconscious, would then all be formed and determined by 'the room' we walk in, no? And by our previous experiences in the room, down to the smallest seemingly insignificant detail.  Even if we don't understand correctly how, it is being formed and shaped; which will Always lead to whatever it is building up to. 

My view, at least. I can predict we're not going to come to an agreement on this, however.

If we are Russian dolls, with no hollow, just more dolls inside ... then there is no freedom.  But a Russian could claim that, wouldn't he?

Or are you just saying that cause/effect is a treadmill?  I often suspect pre-destiny believers simply don't want to take any credit for their serial killings.  Cause/effect people blame everything on their parents ...
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

SGOS

I don't think about it too much.  I think about it some, but then I just throw my hands up, and get on with painting the ceiling or fixing a leaky faucet.  Having said that, I have enjoyed reading this thread so far.  No flaming or name calling at this point.  It's a breath of fresh air.

Sal1981

I think the Newtonian view of the past, present and future as some wound-up clockwork with the unfolding events on some set path is incorrect,  given how quantum mechanics works.

I mostly align with presentism, that only the present is real and that time, the way we experience and assign past and future events, is an illusion.

GSOgymrat

Quote from: Sal1981 on September 11, 2018, 11:16:56 AM
I mostly align with presentism, that only the present is real and that time, the way we experience and assign past and future events, is an illusion.

“Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.”

― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

trdsf

Quote from: Sal1981 on September 11, 2018, 11:16:56 AM
I mostly align with presentism, that only the present is real and that time, the way we experience and assign past and future events, is an illusion.
I'm not sure I agree that the past is illusory, experientially or otherwise.  There are events that it is generally agreed happened in the past.  I will agree that the future is illusory in that it hasn't happened yet, so that we cannot speak with authority about it except in the very broadest strokes.

There was an attack with jets on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and a failed one believed to be intended for the Capitol that crashed in Pennsylvania 17 years ago today -- do you agree that these events actually happened, or is that an experiential illusion because it happened in the past and may or may not have been a real event?
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan