Author Topic: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish  (Read 968 times)

Offline SGOS

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2018, 08:37:37 AM »
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But in fact, life or words are not just random combinations of atoms or letters.  Whether arranged by chemical affinity, or monkeys on typewriters, the whole becomes more (and different) than the parts.
Put letters together to create a word, and you still have the individual parts.  You can clearly see them, but it creates an entirely different experience in your brain.  This isn't a perfect analogy for what happens when you put atoms together.

Putting atoms together creates a far more dramatic result.  You can no longer see the parts, and the whole appears to have no relationship to the parts.  Chemists can symbolize the parts in their equations, but the equation doesn't describe how completely different the whole is from the parts.  The parts blend so well that it's almost like a new part, perhaps even a new atom for all we knew, and actually 200 years ago, scientists didn't even know that pure looking substances even had parts that were completely unlike the whole.  You can't see the oxygen or the hydrogen in water.  In fact, before they were combined you couldn't see anything.  Now it's water sloshing, dripping, and running down a river.

And the new wholes combine again with other parts or even other wholes to make more mysterious substances.  Remember when you first leaned that you could put two deadly poisons together, sodium and chlorine and end up with a completely harmless substance table salt that you eat everyday?  I remember being so stunned by that I wouldn't have been more surprised than if I were told that you could put a rabbit and a hamster in a hat and pull out an electric toaster.

It shouldn't be that surprising that putting basic elements and molecules together can also make something living.  Humans don't like that, because they think life is too special, and then draw an arbitrary line someplace in the continuum of the process and announce,  "All processes must stop here, and can't proceed further without the help of a creator." 

Humans say this, not because it's true, but because there is at present a universal gap in knowledge (though not necessarily in the process).  Since we don't know, we claim to know by assigning the unknown to a creator god.  Some do this because it assures a place for their god.  Some do it because they hate not knowing everything.

In the end, it's a good bet that life is just chemistry, or atoms if you want to put it that way.

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2018, 01:15:31 PM »
Yes, the whole is greater than the parts.  That is a very good point.  But it destroys reductionism in general and materialism in particular.  They are based on the opposite of that.  Of course assuming that the whole isn't greater than the parts is a very useful assumption.  Doesn't make it true.  For instance, in most cases, we can assume the world is flat.  Unless you are going long distance (great circle paths of airplanes), or around the world, it doesn't matter that it isn't flat.  A very good approximation is just that.  Nothing wrong with using approximations.  But assuming that the approximation, isn't an approximation ... that is short sightedness.

We can disagree what "whole is greater than the parts" ... that is philosophy etc.  But just getting people to admit to the fallibility of reductionism and materialism is very hard, when the whole self image of the person is based on that kind of ... nihilism.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 04:21:43 AM »
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I know this is what you believe.  G-d cannot be 'life' for it was never alive--just the imagination of some.  G-d is simply a fiction; can you demonstrate otherwise??

Yeah, when the fiction of choice is "god", some evidence might be nice.  Having never seen any evidence, "god" seems a bit like a unicorn or a frablet.  Never see a frablet?  Neither have I.  Imaginings are for childhood and unsure adults.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2018, 06:35:49 AM »
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Yeah, when the fiction of choice is "god", some evidence might be nice.  Having never seen any evidence, "god" seems a bit like a unicorn or a frablet.  Never see a frablet?  Neither have I.  Imaginings are for childhood and unsure adults.

I define all of you as AI bots.  Therefore there are no humans on the Internet, just bots. (sarc)
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Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2018, 09:00:57 AM »
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Yeah, when the fiction of choice is "god", some evidence might be nice.  Having never seen any evidence, "god" seems a bit like a unicorn or a frablet.  Never see a frablet?  Neither have I.  Imaginings are for childhood and unsure adults.
Or sci-fi writers.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Cavebear

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2018, 09:32:15 AM »
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Or sci-fi writers.

Don't steal my "frablet" idea!  I'm practically done with the first paragraph.

"It was a dark and frablet.  Suddenly, a frablet rang out.  Well, you know, every happy frablet is alike; each unhappy frablet is unhappy in its own way.  It was the best frablet of times and it was the worst frablet of times.  It was a bright cold frablet in April, and the clocks were striking frablet.  It was a queer sultry frablet, and he told the truth frabletly.  If you want to know the truth about it, they say, when trouble come, close frablets.  But in my younger and more vulnerable frablets , as Gregor frablet awoke one morning,he said "call me frablet". 

Best I have so far.  I may have underused my main theme of frablets.

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2018, 11:18:45 AM »
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Don't steal my "frablet" idea!  I'm practically done with the first paragraph.

"It was a dark and frablet.  Suddenly, a frablet rang out.  Well, you know, every happy frablet is alike; each unhappy frablet is unhappy in its own way.  It was the best frablet of times and it was the worst frablet of times.  It was a bright cold frablet in April, and the clocks were striking frablet.  It was a queer sultry frablet, and he told the truth frabletly.  If you want to know the truth about it, they say, when trouble come, close frablets.  But in my younger and more vulnerable frablets , as Gregor frablet awoke one morning,he said "call me frablet". 

Best I have so far.  I may have underused my main theme of frablets.
Frablet on!!!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Cavebear

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2018, 11:31:31 AM »
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Frablet on!!!

How many of those famous opening frablets did you recognize? 

May the frablet universe emerge as frablet is and ever will be.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2018, 12:50:18 PM »
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Or sci-fi writers.

But scifi is our inevitable future, of human colonizing (and fucking) today the solar system, tomorrow the galaxy (rather Nazi that).

Technical utopia is central to Marxism, Fascism, Stalinism, etc.  Secular utopia, with a free lunch.
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Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2018, 08:14:14 PM »
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But scifi is our inevitable future, of human colonizing (and fucking) today the solar system, tomorrow the galaxy (rather Nazi that).

Technical utopia is central to Marxism, Fascism, Stalinism, etc.  Secular utopia, with a free lunch.
I never thought of sci-fi as a prediction of the future.  At first, I thought of them as simply adventures--Tom Swift and all that.  Edgar Rice Burroughs brought fantasy into my life--especially John Carter on Mars and Pellucidar.  And Robert A Heinlein brought social commentary.  My fav. sci-fi and fantasy writers were those who worked social commentary into their stories.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2018, 08:48:46 PM »
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I never thought of sci-fi as a prediction of the future.  At first, I thought of them as simply adventures--Tom Swift and all that.  Edgar Rice Burroughs brought fantasy into my life--especially John Carter on Mars and Pellucidar.  And Robert A Heinlein brought social commentary.  My fav. sci-fi and fantasy writers were those who worked social commentary into their stories.

But, you like classic scifi from before 1950.  You want the future, as it was imagined in the past.  I have enjoyed that too.  Jules Verne impressed me.  That isn't the majority view.  Most scifi fans are Aristotelians, seeing utopia drawing us into the future, teleology of the progressive sort, not the acorn vs oak sort.
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Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2018, 09:50:24 PM »
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But, you like classic scifi from before 1950.  You want the future, as it was imagined in the past.  I have enjoyed that too.  Jules Verne impressed me.  That isn't the majority view.  Most scifi fans are Aristotelians, seeing utopia drawing us into the future, teleology of the progressive sort, not the acorn vs oak sort.
Jules Verne stuff has made good movies, I guess.  Don't like his style of writing; ideas are great, but not to my liking much.  I prefer writers from the late '50's and into the 90's, with the '60/'70's my usual fav stuff.  I think Heinlein was my most consistent fav and have read just about all of what he has written.  Some of the new stuff I've read I like--read all the Hunger Games and most of Harry Potter.  My favorite theme is post apocalypse. Loved The Stand, Swan, The Earth Abides and On The Beach--stuff like that. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Hydra009

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2018, 11:29:04 PM »
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I never thought of sci-fi as a prediction of the future.  At first, I thought of them as simply adventures--Tom Swift and all that.  Edgar Rice Burroughs brought fantasy into my life--especially John Carter on Mars and Pellucidar.  And Robert A Heinlein brought social commentary.  My fav. sci-fi and fantasy writers were those who worked social commentary into their stories.
Sci-fi isn't a prediction as it is an exploration of what might happen under certain conditions, usually the development of a new and powerful technology.  A "what if?" story rather than a prophecy.

They've always been full of social commentary.  Personally, I view Mary Shelley's Frankenstein as the first true science fiction story (no offense, Lucian) and that story gives us the iconic mad scientist as well as the hated monster who isn't truly a monster.

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2018, 03:31:01 AM »
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Sci-fi isn't a prediction as it is an exploration of what might happen under certain conditions, usually the development of a new and powerful technology.  A "what if?" story rather than a prophecy.

They've always been full of social commentary.  Personally, I view Mary Shelley's Frankenstein as the first true science fiction story (no offense, Lucian) and that story gives us the iconic mad scientist as well as the hated monster who isn't truly a monster.

Mary Shelly would have found tinkering with trans-species genetics truly ... Island of Dr Moreau.
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Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2018, 01:44:21 PM »
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Jules Verne stuff has made good movies, I guess.  Don't like his style of writing; ideas are great, but not to my liking much.  I prefer writers from the late '50's and into the 90's, with the '60/'70's my usual fav stuff.  I think Heinlein was my most consistent fav and have read just about all of what he has written.  Some of the new stuff I've read I like--read all the Hunger Games and most of Harry Potter.  My favorite theme is post apocalypse. Loved The Stand, Swan, The Earth Abides and On The Beach--stuff like that. 
If you liked On the Beach you might enjoy You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login, if you haven't already read it.
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