Author Topic: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish  (Read 983 times)

Offline PickelledEggs

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2018, 12:10:38 AM »
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I am on the way of being deist.
I think Richard dawkins is deist, too...At the most positive point of view, he is agnostik atheist.
Richard Dawkins is quite blatantly not a deist.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Draconic Aiur

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2018, 01:23:13 AM »
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I am on the way of being deist.
I think Richard dawkins is deist, too...At the most positive point of view, he is agnostik atheist.


Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2018, 06:31:52 AM »
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I know this is what you believe.  G-d cannot be 'life' for it was never alive--just the imagination of some.  G-d is simply a fiction; can you demonstrate otherwise??

Humans can't be life.  Random combinations of atoms aren't living.  That is the problem with bottom up thinking.  I think bottom up and top down.

The other problem is group vs individual.  For individualists, there are only individuals, no humanity.  For collectivists, there is only humanity, not any individuals.

So for some there is no Life, just life.  That is myopic anyway you cut it.
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Offline SGOS

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2018, 08:09:09 AM »
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Richard Dawkins is quite blatantly not a deist.
Theists can deal with deists, at least their definition of one, because it adds certain god characteristics to something. And Dawkins must therefore be a deist, because he must worship the universe, God's greatest creation, and at least that's something. Right?  Not necessarily.

From my experience with theists saying, "Atheists worship science," or frequently, "Atheists worship the universe," I draw the conclusion that theists can't intellectually grasp not imbuing some special object or objects or concepts with animistic qualities that one cannot help but to worship.  After all, this is what the Druids did.  This is what many African tribes were still doing 30 years ago and no doubt still doing today when the missionaries aren't watching, therefore everyone must be doing it.  They seem unable to comprehend not thinking magically about something:  "OK if you don't think magically about some type of god, what do you think magically about?"  Is that a question or a claim?  It's both.  It's a question making the claim that you imbue magical thinking to something.

It might be assumed that deists do this,
and some may actually do it. 
Therefore Dawkins...
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 08:23:45 AM by SGOS »

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2018, 08:42:39 AM »
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Humans can't be life.  Random combinations of atoms aren't living.  That is the problem with bottom up thinking.  I think bottom up and top down.

The other problem is group vs individual.  For individualists, there are only individuals, no humanity.  For collectivists, there is only humanity, not any individuals.

So for some there is no Life, just life.  That is myopic anyway you cut it.
No, that is nonsensical, anyway you cut it.  You simply seem to hate thinking, reasoning and thinking out of your box.  I am an individualist that also tends to lean toward being a loner.  Yet, I don't dislike 'humanity'.  Yes, there is a problem with the group vs the individual; but I'd label it as a tension, not a problem.  Our constitution tackled that tension.  And black-and-white thinking does not solve or even approach that tension.  It takes an insightful, imaginative and reasonable person to see the shades of gray in that tension.  And it takes patience and a willingness to look at the tension from many different angles.  We are all both individualists and collectivists--stop with the 5th grade insistence upon black-and-white thinking.

 'Humans can't be life.'----what the hell does that mean????  Of course humans are alive.  So what?  There is no Life--it seems to you and Mousie, that if you capitalize the first letter of a word that means Divinity.  Your G-d is a fiction; and it matters not which letters are omitted or capitalized, there are not any gods--they are all fiction.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline SGOS

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2018, 09:04:18 AM »
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'Humans can't be life.'----what the hell does that mean????  Of course humans are alive. 
The quote was:  "Humans can't be life.  Random combinations of atoms aren't living."

What is true of the parts must be true of the whole. 
Therefore, poetry is meaningless because it's just random letters. Right?

But in fact, life or words are not just random combinations of atoms or letters.  Whether arranged by chemical affinity, or monkeys on typewriters, the whole becomes more (and different) than the parts.  The confusion about this reality isn't from thinking bottom up or from the top down.  It's not even from backwards thinking as is done in reverse engineering.  It is from disorganized thinking that results in absurd conclusions.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 07:59:56 PM by SGOS »

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2018, 12:56:14 PM »
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No, that is nonsensical, anyway you cut it.  You simply seem to hate thinking, reasoning and thinking out of your box.  I am an individualist that also tends to lean toward being a loner.  Yet, I don't dislike 'humanity'.  Yes, there is a problem with the group vs the individual; but I'd label it as a tension, not a problem.  Our constitution tackled that tension.  And black-and-white thinking does not solve or even approach that tension.  It takes an insightful, imaginative and reasonable person to see the shades of gray in that tension.  And it takes patience and a willingness to look at the tension from many different angles.  We are all both individualists and collectivists--stop with the 5th grade insistence upon black-and-white thinking.

 'Humans can't be life.'----what the hell does that mean????  Of course humans are alive.  So what?  There is no Life--it seems to you and Mousie, that if you capitalize the first letter of a word that means Divinity.  Your G-d is a fiction; and it matters not which letters are omitted or capitalized, there are not any gods--they are all fiction.

Sorry, if you don't think like me (speaking as an egomaniac) then you are Wrong! (sarc)
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Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2018, 12:59:27 PM »
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The quote was:  "Humans can't be life.  Random combinations of atoms aren't living."

What is true of the parts must be true of the whole. 
Therefore, poetry is meaningless because it's just random letters. Right?

But in fact, life or words are not just random combinations of atoms or letters.  Whether arranged by chemical affinity, or monkeys on typewriters, the whole becomes more (and different) than the parts.  The confusion about this reality isn't from thinking bottom up or from the top down.  It's not even from backwards thinking as is done in reverse engineering.  It from disorganized thinking that results in absurd conclusions.

Correct as far as you go.  Letters make up words, and usually only words have meaning.  But existence is meaningless, so I am told.  So how did you learn to read then?  Must have been impossible.

We don't have much problem with words, that describe something individual and concrete (a cat for instance).  But we start having problems with collective nouns (cats for instance) .. and we go off the deep end with abstract nouns (cattiness for instance).  This is a part of the spectrum of human psychology.  Not judging, just describing the variety out there.  Why is philosophy hard?  It deals with the worst abstract nouns (beauty for instance).
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Offline PickelledEggs

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2018, 05:56:28 PM »
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No, that is nonsensical,
And this is Baruch in a nutshell.

Emphasis on the "nut"
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2018, 06:07:31 PM »
A nut in a shell all his own.
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"The Republicans went from Abraham Lincoln to Sarah Palin to Donald Trump. No wonder they don't believe in evolution."
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Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2018, 06:23:54 PM »
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A nut in a shell all his own.

Hemlet would have counted me lucky!  Is that you, poor paper-mache Yorick?
שלום

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2018, 08:08:09 PM »
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  But existence is meaningless, so I am told.  So how did you learn to read then?  Must have been impossible.

Existence is meaningless--so you are told?  By whom on this site??  I don't remember anybody saying that.  What does learning to read have to do with it??  Oh yeah, I do remember many, many, or even more than many, teachers saying all the time--'Little Johnny just can't learn to read since he has not discovered what the meaning of his life is.  It is so sad, but it happens sooooooooo often.' Yeah, that problem is just everywhere!!

Just because others don't subscribe to your view of the universe, you are constantly in a fit of pique. I guess because your G-d gives you such accurate info about all the mysteries or unknowns of the universe and you are just trying to help us poor blind fools along.
 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2018, 10:26:50 PM »
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Existence is meaningless--so you are told?  By whom on this site??  I don't remember anybody saying that.  What does learning to read have to do with it??  Oh yeah, I do remember many, many, or even more than many, teachers saying all the time--'Little Johnny just can't learn to read since he has not discovered what the meaning of his life is.  It is so sad, but it happens sooooooooo often.' Yeah, that problem is just everywhere!!

Just because others don't subscribe to your view of the universe, you are constantly in a fit of pique. I guess because your G-d gives you such accurate info about all the mysteries or unknowns of the universe and you are just trying to help us poor blind fools along.
 

The nihilists have opined.  Are you one?  Didn't claim you were.

Yes, my god ... a dictionary ... look up Life vs life etc.  People discard words or meanings of words, if they aren't confirmation bias.
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Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2018, 11:27:49 PM »
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The nihilists have opined.  Are you one?  Didn't claim you were.

Yes, my god ... a dictionary ... look up Life vs life etc.  People discard words or meanings of words, if they aren't confirmation bias.
Your G-d is a dictionary??!!  Don't think so. 
Didn't find a dictionary that had a listing for Life and one for life.  So, what is the difference?  And yes, Baruch, as tho you don't know this, people discard words and meanings; change them; and misuse them.  So????? Just because you use Life (w/cap.) does not bestow any divine meaning to it--well, maybe it does for you......and your G-d.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Hydra009

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2018, 11:51:25 PM »
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Theists can deal with deists, at least their definition of one, because it adds certain god characteristics to something.
As an aside, it kinda bugs me how people use theist and deist as if they're mutually exclusive groups when I consider them to heavily overlap.

Here's my flow chart:

"Do you believe in a god(s)?"  Yes = Theist | No = Atheist
[to theists] Do you believe in a personal, interventionist god?  Yes = Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc |  No = Deists

In my mind, all deists are theists but not all theists are deists.

 

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