Author Topic: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish  (Read 2053 times)

If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« on: September 08, 2018, 07:42:41 PM »
I am on the way of being deist.
I think Richard dawkins is deist, too...At the most positive point of view, he is agnostik atheist.

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2018, 10:23:06 PM »
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I am on the way of being deist.
I think Richard dawkins is deist, too...At the most positive point of view, he is agnostik atheist.

OK.  Remind me, you were coming to deism from which prior position?
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2018, 10:36:58 PM »
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OK.  Remind me, you were coming to deism from which prior position?

From agnostic-atheism(negative atheism)
I can't say there is no God ''absolutely''... Nobody can...I give a chance him or her or them...
And i can't claim there is only one God, of course...Just non-knowing, that is: agnosticsm were my position...still so...




Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2018, 11:07:44 PM »
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From agnostic-atheism(negative atheism)
I can't say there is no God ''absolutely''... Nobody can...I give a chance him or her or them...
And i can't claim there is only one God, of course...Just non-knowing, that is: agnosticsm were my position...still so...

Agnosticism comes in various flavors too.  But at least it is modest.  Being from Turkey you have a very different experience from mine.  I have only visited Ephesus in 1983, and have a positive view of Turks (who I think are misunderstood, being non-Western).  But I attended, with my daughter, the opening of the local Turkish Community Center.  I happen to admire Rumi (who came from Afghanistan originally), the Mevlevis and Gulen.

Of course, everyone has skeletons in their closet, not just people from Turkey.  History has many tragedies.  My Y chromosome originated with the first animal tamers in SE Anatolia probably.  Getting to W Europe as part of the Neolithic expansion.

My present view about G-d is very different now ... the people here helped me evolve, though not the way they intended.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline SGOS

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2018, 05:07:41 AM »
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I am on the way of being deist.
You're on your way.  Next you will be praying for forgiveness.  I'm just being silly; I have no beef with deists.  Just don't start telling the rest of us that we aren't intelligent enough to agree with you, and we will all be good.

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2018, 11:11:00 AM »
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I am on the way of being deist.
I think Richard dawkins is deist, too...At the most positive point of view, he is agnostik atheist.
I was on my way to calling myself a deist at one time.  For most, I suppose, that the absence of proof does not constitute proof; but slowly, over time, I find the sound of no proof so loud in my ears that I think it does constitute proof.  I have challenged many a theist to fill in the blanks; to show any level of proof that any deity exists, even their own god (or even Jesus) is here or ever was here.  All that I see and understand has a perfectly good reason for it--no divine work needed--so, I would love for any theist to put forth any proof at all.  They can't for none exists.  So, to be honest to myself, I discarded deist along with any other form of theism that has ever existed.  I guess I'd be a strong atheist--but not really that.  I don't like the term a-theist for that is a label that says I reject theists.  I know some wonderful theist and would not disrespect them for anything.  I am just not a believer in any gods--so, I like 'non-believer' better.  Also as an atheist I'd be saying I'm against a fiction or nothing.  That would be like saying I was against Bugs Bunny or Porky Pig--they're fictions and how can one be against them?  I don't want to suggest to any theist that I need to be against their fiction, for they have nothing that is real; when they establish that their god is real, then I will be against that god.     
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2018, 11:34:13 AM »
You're a few months late for April Fools.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline aitm

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2018, 11:40:54 AM »
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I am on the way of being deist.

k...have a nice trip
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2018, 02:14:55 PM »
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I was on my way to calling myself a deist at one time.  For most, I suppose, that the absence of proof does not constitute proof; but slowly, over time, I find the sound of no proof so loud in my ears that I think it does constitute proof.  I have challenged many a theist to fill in the blanks; to show any level of proof that any deity exists, even their own god (or even Jesus) is here or ever was here.  All that I see and understand has a perfectly good reason for it--no divine work needed--so, I would love for any theist to put forth any proof at all.  They can't for none exists.  So, to be honest to myself, I discarded deist along with any other form of theism that has ever existed.  I guess I'd be a strong atheist--but not really that.  I don't like the term a-theist for that is a label that says I reject theists.  I know some wonderful theist and would not disrespect them for anything.  I am just not a believer in any gods--so, I like 'non-believer' better.  Also as an atheist I'd be saying I'm against a fiction or nothing.  That would be like saying I was against Bugs Bunny or Porky Pig--they're fictions and how can one be against them?  I don't want to suggest to any theist that I need to be against their fiction, for they have nothing that is real; when they establish that their god is real, then I will be against that god.   

Lots of reasons on a lot of levels. 

There is the ontological reason against deity ... it is incoherent (and we don't like that)

There is the metaphysical reason against deity ... it is is metaphysical (and we don't like that)

There is the empirical reason against deity ... it is supernatural (and we don't like that)

There is the libertine reason against deity ... it is judgmental (and we don't like that)

There is the social reason against deity ... the majority of society, population and culture are religious (and we don't like that)

There is the political reason against deity ... religion isn't kept private, but influences politics (and we don't like that).

There are actually more reasons against theism than arguments in favor of theism ;-)

I agree with some of these, disagree with others.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline Hydra009

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2018, 02:26:23 PM »
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I am on the way of being deist.
Good for you.  Idc tbh.

Quote
I think Richard dawkins is deist, too...
Based on...?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the guy who the guy who wrote The God Delusion and describes himself as an atheist is probably an atheist.  Shocking, I know.

Quote
At the most positive point of view, he is agnostik atheist.
What do you mean by "most positive point of view"?  A label is either accurate or inaccurate.  Whatever else you're going on about is irrelevant.

Quote
I can't say there is no God ''absolutely''... Nobody can...I give a chance him or her or them...
Okay, so where do you stand on invisible dragons?  We can't absolutely say those don't exist, either.  Would you consider it logical to assume that maybe they do exist based on the fact that we can't definitively show that they don't exist?

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2018, 02:31:12 PM »
Dawkins himself said ..

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That while he was atheist, he was agnostic in a limited way.  "fairies at the bottom of the garden" ... how English is that?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 02:33:09 PM by Baruch »
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2018, 02:38:43 PM »
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Lots of reasons on a lot of levels. 

There is the ontological reason against deity ... it is incoherent (and we don't like that)

There is the metaphysical reason against deity ... it is is metaphysical (and we don't like that)

There is the empirical reason against deity ... it is supernatural (and we don't like that)

There is the libertine reason against deity ... it is judgmental (and we don't like that)

There is the social reason against deity ... the majority of society, population and culture are religious (and we don't like that)

There is the political reason against deity ... religion isn't kept private, but influences politics (and we don't like that).

There are actually more reasons against theism than arguments in favor of theism ;-)

I agree with some of these, disagree with others.
Theism is in place because people what the 'why' of existence.  I like the 'why', too.  But I would like the 'why' of a god or any gods.  Why should I believe in one--or many?  Show me that--why should I believe.  There is no compelling reason to do so.  Unless you can produce one bit of data that suggests there is possibly any gods, then I'll list reasons to be against that or those, gods.  Until then, what is the point???  There isn't any.  God is a fiction and nobody can prove otherwise.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2018, 05:27:23 PM »
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I am on the way of being deist.

I'm just curious, but were you persuaded to deism by the strength of the "first cause" argument?
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"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate."
Isaac Asimov

Offline Baruch

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2018, 10:27:37 PM »
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Theism is in place because people what the 'why' of existence.  I like the 'why', too.  But I would like the 'why' of a god or any gods.  Why should I believe in one--or many?  Show me that--why should I believe.  There is no compelling reason to do so.  Unless you can produce one bit of data that suggests there is possibly any gods, then I'll list reasons to be against that or those, gods.  Until then, what is the point???  There isn't any.  God is a fiction and nobody can prove otherwise.

Every living individual thing (and maybe some collective things) are living beings.  G-d is Life, therefore all living things are manifestations of G-d.  The living things being human beings ... are demi-gods, unless you are Egyptian of course.  In which case cats are clearly demi-gods also.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: If God doesnt wish, you cant wish
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2018, 11:57:29 PM »
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Every living individual thing (and maybe some collective things) are living beings.  G-d is Life, therefore all living things are manifestations of G-d.  The living things being human beings ... are demi-gods, unless you are Egyptian of course.  In which case cats are clearly demi-gods also.
I know this is what you believe.  G-d cannot be 'life' for it was never alive--just the imagination of some.  G-d is simply a fiction; can you demonstrate otherwise??
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

 

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