Author Topic: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars  (Read 4415 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2018, 08:57:07 AM »
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I walk in.

"I'll give you 75% of the sticker price."

"We can't do that."

"Bye."

"Wait! Would you..."

"I'll give you 75% of the sticker price." And so on. I got a car for what I was willing to pay.

Today you might try walking in with a big wad of cash (the salesman would probably take your offer) ... and have a cop benefit his department with "civil forfeiture". ;-(
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline Johan

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2018, 11:04:43 AM »
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A seatbelt is hard to fuck up. Relatively, an airbag is hard to fuck up. A rear view camera that links to the car's computer and display system, which is linked to essentially every major function of the car, is something that companies already fuck up. You think when they are forced to throw it in against their will, they are going to suddenly magically work?
Who says the must be linked to every function of the car? Backup cams are about as dirt simple as electronics can get. My pickup has a backup camera. I've had zero issues with it. None, nada, zip. But work gives me a company vehicle so I don't actually drive my pickup all that much.

The first company vehicle they gave me was an old diesel cargo van. Boy did I miss the backup camera. So I had an aftermarket radio installed with a backup camera. Cost like $300 installed. Worked great for as long as I drove it.

Then they took the van away and gave me the CEO's old Ridgeline. Great vehicle but it too predates backup cameras. So I bought a garmin GPS and a garmin wireless backup camera. Installed it myself and works great. Absolutely reliable.

But back to your argument which is that mandated backup cameras are bad because they're integrated into the electronics and will therefore be expensive to fix when they break. This is a really weak argument and here's why.
1. There is no mandate for the cameras to be integrated with all the other electronics. Yep manufacturers do it that way but they don't have to. And if enough people demand it, they'll do it your way. Start writing letters.
2. There is no mandate that they be maintained. If you buy a car with one and it breaks and you don't want to fix it, don't. No one says you have to. So what's the problem? If the integrated electronics break then a ton of shit that you probably actually want or need will not work. Its unlikely the a backup camera being integrated into the system would cause or contribute to such a failre and fixing the problem in that case will cost $0 more just because the vehicle has a backup camera.
3. There is no mandate that says you must buy a new car. Cars last a long time now. There will be tons of inventory for years to come which are not required to have backup cameras. Buy one of those drive around all day giving the finger to the man.

I've heard people gripe about these things since the mandate was announced and I honestly don't understand what the problem is. I'm kind of envious of those who have a problem with this because I figure they must be leading a seriously trouble free lifestyle if this issue is the thing that gets their blood boiling. I wish I had so little to worry about that I could bother to be upset by something so stupid as a backup camera but I digress.

Oh they add cost you say? Yep they sure do. As I said above, I've installed them using aftermarket parts in two vehicles and the cost was under $500. That's $500 to do it aftermarket. Built into the design and installed at the factory we're talking less than $100. Are you really going to bitch about a $100 item that could save someone from injury or death on a vehicle that's going to cost you north of $20k regardless of whether it has that safety item or not?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 11:14:51 AM by Johan »
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Offline Baruch

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2018, 11:28:40 AM »
Humans crappify everything they touch.  So yes, everything must be integrated, and jacked into a chip in your skull, that Google keeps track of ... bwahaha.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2018, 01:46:42 PM »
Good. I used to work outside, collecting carts for a grocery store. I swear to god, almost nobody checked their mirrors before backing up. They'd get in the car, and before they've even had time to fasten their seat belt, they're already in reverse. I learned to stop and wait when I saw people getting in their cars, because I didn't trust them to be responsible. I'm surprised nobody working out there has been killed or seriously injured yet (to my knowledge).

Also, on a sort of related note, old people just shouldn't drive. I was asked to help one elderly man in the drive-through of the pharmacy, expecting that he was having engine trouble or a flat tire or something. Turned out, he was trying to accelerate while in parking gear. I pointed this out to him, thinking he was just having a brain fart. After all, he'd driven the entire way here without incident, right? But after he shifted into drive, he fucking floored it. I watched in disbelief as he zoomed around the corner of the full parking lot and I heard a loud crash. Amazingly, he didn't hit anyone, but crashed into a sign and some trees, totaling his car. He was uninjured, but shaken. That could have ended very, very badly. My guess is he mistook the gas pedal for the break, which is a common mistake elderly drivers make.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2018, 02:07:39 PM »
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Good. I used to work outside, collecting carts for a grocery store. I swear to god, almost nobody checked their mirrors before backing up.
I recently had a store person who was collecting carts stand behind my Mazda Tribute with her back to me. If I hadn't been looking I would have driven over her. She evidently thought "this old guy won't look, and I'll trade some pain for lots of money." Didn't work.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Online Shiranu

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2018, 02:22:28 PM »
Quote
Who says the must be linked to every function of the car? Backup cams are about as dirt simple as electronics can get.

The manufacturers. It is of course possible not to do it, but they do it anyways. They cant have it be simple, they have too many people breathing down their necks telling them to "innovate". So they may poor choices like a "cover" on the underside of the car that provides no actual benefit and is annoying to have to remove just to get under the car. Or all the computer systems have to be linked because our cars need to have a smartphone/computer in the middle console that has full wifi capacity and can browse google, and why would you install multiple systems on one car when you can have it all in one place?

Car prices continue to rise quicker than our incomes do, and coincidentally the amount of bells and whistles that need to be added on just happen to be rising as well. You do not need a backup camera to backup safely, as made evident by the literal billions of times people do it a day without hitting a fly. It's one thing to make people pay more for something they can afford to pay more, it's entirely another to be rising the price on something that already drives millions upon millions of people into debt... all for an item with a 8% rate of improvement (of any accident, not even harmful ones).

Quote
Are you really going to bitch about a $100 item that could save someone from injury or death on a vehicle that's going to cost you north of $20k regardless of whether it has that safety item or not?

Yes, because I'm not going to buy a $20-fucking-thousand dollar car that has that safety item. That's the reason it costs $20,000... is because it has to have all the bells and whistles, and what this regulation is doing is trying to turn bare-boned, working class cars into the debt-machines that are a "modern, entry level" vehicles that even the upper-middle class go into debt over.

Even if the manufacture only charges $100 to install a camera that costs $150 and a screen that costs $500, even if they got those in bulk at a lower price, they are losing money. That's not how corporations work, my dude. There is a reason the nicer model of any given car, with only a couple more bells and whistles, has their price go up by several thousand dollars, not several hundred.

That is a mandatory "$100" (likely $400+). That is not pocket change for a college student working an entry level job and paying another $260 on car insurance and a hundred or two more in medical bills, as well as all the other normal expenses. 

Offline Johan

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2018, 08:53:17 PM »
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The manufacturers. It is of course possible not to do it, but they do it anyways. They cant have it be simple, they have too many people breathing down their necks telling them to "innovate".
Ok but this situation exists regardless of whether backup cameras are mandated or not. And integrating a backup camera into such a system does not make that system any more likely to suffer a total system failure. Backup cameras change nothing as far this aspect of it goes. So like I said, pretty weak argument.



Quote
Car prices continue to rise quicker than our incomes do, and coincidentally the amount of bells and whistles that need to be added on just happen to be rising as well. You do not need a backup camera to backup safely, as made evident by the literal billions of times people do it a day without hitting a fly. It's one thing to make people pay more for something they can afford to pay more, it's entirely another to be rising the price on something that already drives millions upon millions of people into debt... all for an item with a 8% rate of improvement (of any accident, not even harmful ones).
Power steering is not mandated. Power windows are not mandated. Power door locks are not mandated. But you pretty much cannot find a new car without all of them these days and you cannot order a vehicle without them if you wanted to in most cases. Backup cameras would have been the same way. The only thing mandating them did was speed up the process.


Quote
Even if the manufacture only charges $100 to install a camera that costs $150 and a screen that costs $500, even if they got those in bulk at a lower price, they are losing money. That's not how corporations work, my dude. There is a reason the nicer model of any given car, with only a couple more bells and whistles, has their price go up by several thousand dollars, not several hundred.

That is a mandatory "$100" (likely $400+). That is not pocket change for a college student working an entry level job and paying another $260 on car insurance and a hundred or two more in medical bills, as well as all the other normal expenses. 
You weren't listening. I said I've installed cameras aftermarket in two different vehicles and neither was more than $500. That's for the camera, screen and GPS in case and radio in the other. And in the case of the radio, it also includes the cost to have a professional install it. Factored into the design of a new vehicle it will be less than $100 total. Way less. Will manufacturers charge more? Probably. Profit is kind of the idea after all. But the added cost is literally peanuts compared to the overall pre-existing cost of the vehicle. As for college students not being able to afford a new vehicle because of the cost. I've been on this planet for 50 years and I cannot recall a time when your average college student could afford a brand new car so again, your argument is weak. Very weak.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Offline SGOS

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2018, 01:03:46 AM »
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I've been on this planet for 50 years and I cannot recall a time when your average college student could afford a brand new car.
That's sure how it was for me and most of my friends.  We all drove junkers, but most of us could only manage that after we had worked a couple of summers.  I walked everywhere my first two years.  I haven't hung out at a  college campus for years.  Maybe expectations are different now, and maybe they need to be, although I wouldn't know why that should be.  There were a few guys that had cool cars, but none were in my social groups.  I never had a new car until two years after I entered the actual work force, and that was a 1968 Volkswagen Bug that required a heavy coat and a cap with furry ear flaps and a plastic window scraper to keep the inside of the windows deiced in the winter.  I could scrape and drive at the same time.  One scraping lasted about 20 minutes.  Granted that was in Montana during especially brutal winter days.  Even for the first 10 years of my career buying a car required debt and sacrifice.  For the next 10 years it required mostly debt, but debt was always a burden for me.

Offline Baruch

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2018, 05:28:04 AM »
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That's sure how it was for me and most of my friends.  We all drove junkers, but most of us could only manage that after we had worked a couple of summers.  I walked everywhere my first two years.  I haven't hung out at a  college campus for years.  Maybe expectations are different now, and maybe they need to be, although I wouldn't know why that should be.  There were a few guys that had cool cars, but none were in my social groups.  I never had a new car until two years after I entered the actual work force, and that was a 1968 Volkswagen Bug that required a heavy coat and a cap with furry ear flaps and a plastic window scraper to keep the inside of the windows deiced in the winter.  I could scrape and drive at the same time.  One scraping lasted about 20 minutes.  Granted that was in Montana during especially brutal winter days.  Even for the first 10 years of my career buying a car required debt and sacrifice.  For the next 10 years it required mostly debt, but debt was always a burden for me.

Same here.  Only one new car my whole life (less than 500 miles on odometer), and it was a Chevy and a lemon.  I was in my late 20s.  My first two cars were donated by my parents (I paid insurance, gas etc).  I have never owned a Chevy again.

Perhaps since new cars are turning into an iPhone on 4 wheels, people feel that like an iPhone, they need the latest as soon as it comes out?  I recently drove a new rental (Nissan Sentra) ... that had the back-up camera.  The accessory panel wasn't as advanced as some I have seen.  As it was I had to have my daughter ride shotgun (navigator).  She was running the accessory panel (for climate control), and running GPS on her smart phone.  Too distracting, the newer accessory panels are sufficiently complicated (I use a flip phone for a reason) I would have had to stop, park and manipulate ... couldn't run it while driving.  That would have been a challenge on a dark unfamiliar Interstate in the middle of a rainstorm.  I don't have that problem with my older model car that uses buttons.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 05:34:00 AM by Baruch »
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline SGOS

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2018, 08:05:06 AM »
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Same here.  Only one new car my whole life (less than 500 miles on odometer), and it was a Chevy and a lemon.  I was in my late 20s.  My first two cars were donated by my parents (I paid insurance, gas etc).  I have never owned a Chevy again.
After I graduated college, I drove the old beater back to Chicago, and stayed with my parents for the summer.  The trip from Montana was the last one and it arrived coughing and sputtering. My parents never gave me a car.  We didn't have that much money, but my Dad sold me his at the end of the summer.  He said it was a good deal.  I don't know if it was because everyone says that.

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Perhaps since new cars are turning into an iPhone on 4 wheels, people feel that like an iPhone, they need the latest as soon as it comes out? 
I don't have a smart phone either, but I admit I'm sold on the backup camera.  Most of the bells and whistles, I don't care about.  They're nice, but hardly necessary.  The backup camera is the only new option that could get me to step up a model just to have in a car, not enough to trade in the Miata for several years, but enough to insist on it for the next one.  Maybe navigation too, but that's it.

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the newer accessory panels are sufficiently complicated (I use a flip phone for a reason) I would have had to stop, park and manipulate ... couldn't run it while driving.  That would have been a challenge on a dark unfamiliar Interstate in the middle of a rainstorm.  I don't have that problem with my older model car that uses buttons.
The Mazda accessory panel has been criticized for not being easily intuitive, especially the navigation set up, and I'm not sure I've figured it all out yet after using one for three years.  It's touch screen, but I find it too distracting to look at the screen and touch while driving (think texting).  It does have a control knob built on the console between the seats.  It's just an inch from the gear shift and allows a restful position for my arm.  Through a combination of turning and pressing, I can direct the accessory panel faster than I can touch, but some things you can't manipulate until the car is stopped.  The car won't let you.  You can navigate with voice control anytime, and your hands never leave the wheel.  Most of the time, I don't even have to look at the screen.

Offline SGOS

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2018, 08:31:13 AM »
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That's not just a no in my book, that's a hell fucking no. The system costs more than paying for a fender bender out of pocket. Why the hell would I want one of those?
Inconvenience of repairs for one thing.  There is also the  cost of damage to someone else's property, which you can be held liable for. 

I recently got tangled up in a car wash of all things.  Nothing serious, but it resulted in an ugly scratch in the lower front panel around the grill.  The car wash paid for it; $600. 

The backup camera is still cheaper than a minor repair, and few repairs are cheaper than a scratch.  The days of the $50 body putty repair are long gone.

Offline Baruch

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2018, 11:42:18 AM »
Integrated systems ... Tesla drivers recently got into trouble.  Their cars are integrated into the Tesla wireless network (like OnStar).  Because of how the drivers set things up, when the network went down, they could no longer start the car, or even open the door.

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Yes, put the CIA in charge of your car, after you put a GPS into your car.  Otherwise the Russians under your bed are going to ...

Yes, OnStar ... because you think you are Batman, and drive the Batmobile ;-))  Poor Batman, only has Alfred to help him out, not the spooks at Langley.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2018, 01:14:47 PM »
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  I have never owned a Chevy again.
Friday car. Get over it.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Baruch

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2018, 03:23:02 PM »
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Friday car. Get over it.

Had a couple nice Toyotas, and Chryslers.

Driving a Mercury (Ford) now.  Grand Marquis, well built, lots of fans love it.
Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2018, 03:28:05 PM »
Well, if you're comfortable with the error of small samples...
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

 

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