Author Topic: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars  (Read 862 times)

Offline Shiranu

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2018, 02:04:55 PM »
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"Yeah...but I still don't like it!"

I hope your week picks up, because otherwise I don't understand why you are stooping to this level.


I have provided my reasons. Not wanting to be even further in debt for something that will be made poorly and jerryrigged in just to meet regulations without any actual thought of quality or if it actually fits with the design and specs of the cars... that is a little more than, "I don't like it".


A seatbelt is hard to fuck up. Relatively, an airbag is hard to fuck up. A rear view camera that links to the car's computer and display system, which is linked to essentially every major function of the car, is something that companies already fuck up. You think when they are forced to throw it in against their will, they are going to suddenly magically work?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 02:13:20 PM by Shiranu »
I've Got Love, Fuck Your Money.

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Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2018, 02:31:38 PM »
I read 'em. Not impressed. I paid too many death benefits to the beneficiaries of people who found ways around all the safety features that could be found in a car.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Shiranu

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2018, 02:54:31 PM »
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I read 'em. Not impressed. I paid too many death benefits to the beneficiaries of people who found ways around all the safety features that could be found in a car.

Then you should also know that the overwhelming majority of accidents involve one or both parties being distracted. You can put all the safety features in the world on a car, but if people aren't paying attention to them then they do absolutely jack shit.

The NHTSA has estimated that rear-cameras have had an 8% reduction effect on accidents involving a car in reverse; not people killed, not people injured, but all accidents including fenderbenders. That is not impressive.

Now consider the cost of the camera...

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Edmund's estimates a camera will set you back between $150 and $400. The instillation is another $400-600 and the screens will set you back another $500 to $1500 dollars. Anything a car manufacture does will not be those low end costs but rather mid-to-upper range, so you are looking at a mandatory increase of about $1500 to the car cost.

That is not pocket change, particularly when the average cost of a car is already exponentially rising when compared to the average wage of an American worker, and don't even get me started on people in my age range who are already neck deep in debt. You are asking millions upon millions upon millions of Americans to go further and further in debt for something that has only made an 8% difference.

Nah dude, fuck that. You know damn well I am 100% for the collective paying more to protect the individual, but even I have limits to where that crosses the line. We don't need smarter cars, we need smarter drivers. The cameras do fuck-all when 92% of us still just use our eyes and looking over our shoulders to back out, even when we have the camera right there.



Like, I'm glad you can afford that... but I cant. College students cant. The average working class person cant. We don't buy models of cars that don't have cameras because we hate them... shit, if I could afford the maintenance and initial cost of one, I would probably buy it cause it seems pretty cool.

This isn't about hating new fangled new technology that our Luddite brains cant comprehend, it's about the fact we cant ๐Ÿ‘ fucking ๐Ÿ‘ afford ๐Ÿ‘ it, and it's not effective anyways.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 02:57:02 PM by Shiranu »
I've Got Love, Fuck Your Money.

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Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2018, 02:56:25 PM »
Okay then.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline _Xenu_

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2018, 03:01:50 PM »
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Edmund's estimates a camera will set you back between $150 and $400. The instillation is another $400-600 and the screens will set you back another $500 to $1500 dollars. Anything a car manufacture does will not be those low end costs but rather mid-to-upper range, so you are looking at a mandatory increase of about $1500 to the car cost.
That's not just a no in my book, that's a hell fucking no. The system costs more than paying for a fender bender out of pocket. Why the hell would I want one of those? And that's not even taking into account added complexity, and the costs to repair if it breaks.
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Offline Shiranu

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2018, 03:02:15 PM »
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Okay then.

I guess at the end of the day, yeah... okay then. It doesn't hopefully effect me because I don't plan on buying a 2020 or older car. But for the millions of people who get driven deeper into debt so people can feel good (even if it doesn't actually do anything), it's not really "okay then".

(and in before, "Hurr shiranu, but u advocates f4 collecutve healthcure!!!" [edit: Not that I think you would say that Gawdzil]. Yeah, no shit. I also advocate for the prices being lowered through restricting corporations right to charge whatever they want and I also advocate for people paying what they can afford, not everyone having to pay the same amount. To put this car thing into the healthcare analogy, this is like saying everyone has to get insurance... but regardless of if you make zero dollars a year or a million dollars a year, everyone has to pay the exact same price for the insurance.)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 03:09:54 PM by Shiranu »
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Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2018, 03:10:35 PM »
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There is a large difference between a seat belt or horn, which are relatively simple pieces of mechanical systems and basic electronics, versus rear-view cameras that are integrated into a universal computer system that is responsible for everything from the camera to traction control to ignition to...

Cars are becoming far less about mechanics and more and more about integrated electronics, and that is going to be inherently more expensive.  And one one thing goes wrong, it's reaching a point where the entire system has to be replaced, and that is incredibly expensive.

Median car prices (post-inflation) are rising far faster than median income. That is an issue not just for new cars but for "older' cars as well... you have to take out larger and larger loans just to get even a moderately used car, and taking out loans that can be 10, 15, 20, 25% to afford it.

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There is an absolutely brilliant video on why electronics have been a major problem for car costs, but I cant find it now to save my life. If I do I'll be sure to post it here. It really changed my mind on cars a year or two ago, and since then I have not been a fan of advanced electronics in cars, much less mandatory advanced electronics.
I understand your point.  But I'd say that backup a camera is cheaper than seat belts.  I drive a 2005 Sienna.  I live in a residential area, and back out of my drive way.  A car parked across the street (legally) directly across from my driveway.  I backed into him; decided to get a backup system. It cost me $125 and another $75 to install it.  Works fine.  But it would be better if it was factory installed.  I think that is a reasonable amount for what I got.  Use it all the time; has saved me backing into cars in parking lots.  And even better, I can see whatever is back there in my drive way.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2018, 03:21:30 PM »
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I guess at the end of the day, yeah... okay then. It doesn't hopefully effect me because I don't plan on buying a 2020 or older car. But for the millions of people who get driven deeper into debt so people can feel good (even if it doesn't actually do anything), it's not really "okay then".

(and in before, "Hurr shiranu, but u advocates f4 collecutve healthcure!!!" [edit: Not that I think you would say that Gawdzil]. Yeah, no shit. I also advocate for the prices being lowered through restricting corporations right to charge whatever they want and I also advocate for people paying what they can afford, not everyone having to pay the same amount. To put this car thing into the healthcare analogy, this is like saying everyone has to get insurance... but regardless of if you make zero dollars a year or a million dollars a year, everyone has to pay the exact same price for the insurance.)
I recently ran up a $42,000 bill for three days in a hospital.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline Shiranu

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2018, 03:35:16 PM »
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I recently ran up a $42,000 bill for three days in a hospital.

Fuuuuuck, I know how that goes. Sorry to hear that :\.
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Offline SGOS

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2018, 04:27:07 PM »
In the hopes of not derailing my own thread, here's one of my car buying peeves, although probably my smallest peeve in car buying.  I remember a time if you wanted a clock on your dash panel, they would put one in.  If you wanted a radio, they put it in.  This or that, they put it in.  Now, taking their cue from TV cable companies, cars come with choices from the manufacturer that come in packages.  The Mazda 3 and 6 had these various option models that were given non descriptive names like the Sport, Touring i, Touring e, Grand Touring i and e, and on and on,  Each model had a package of options.  If you wanted a certain option you had to buy the right model.  As you climb the 1k rung of the ladder upwards, the options from the lower models were included.  I wanted built in navigation, and in fact, navigation might be the only option the Mazda dealer could install like in the old days, but you had to buy the model with the touch screen big enough to handle it, and it was somewhere up the chain.  Had I gone farther up, navigation would have been included.  I think the cost for dealer installation was $550.

But the weird thing was that I didn't know that the model with the right sized screen had the technology already in place, I assume I had already paid for that.  The dealer said it might take a couple of days to install the navigation, but what this meant was that he would have to slide a little SD card like the one in your digital camera into a slot on the dashboard.  He called me the next day to tell me it was now installed and ready to pickup.  So it cost $550 for him to insert the SD card.

On the Mazda 3, I was also supposed to get a month's free satellite radio, as the salesman told me, but that was actually an honest mistake (I think), because that never showed up on my system after I bought the car.  I asked the salesman about it and after he researched it a bit more, he told me that was only available if I bought the "technology package," and I wouldn't have bought that anyway because the technology package came with a sun roof, and I absolutely didn't want that.  But a sun roof?  Why is that considered technology?  They've been making them for 50 years.  I didn't really care about the satellite radio, but I wanted to at least get the included 1 month free trial, so it wasn't a big deal.

A couple of years later I was test driving a 2017 Miata, the premium Grand Touring model that came with navigation.  I wanted to try it, but the salesman told me they don't put the card in for a test drive because people were swiping them when no one was looking.  LOL

As it turns out, satellite radio was on the Miata that I eventually bought, and I did indeed get the months free trial, but it turned out to be just advertising that told all about the wonders of their product.  I never heard a tune or 5 minutes of talk radio.  Just a continuous ad that played over and over.  Now I get email from Sirrus Radio all the time with special sign up offers, which I ignore.

Good God Almighty.  What a bunch of nonsense.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 04:28:55 PM by SGOS »

Offline Jason Harvestdancer

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2018, 11:59:41 PM »
Yeah, next time I'm able to buy new or semi-new, I'm going to be a salesman's nightmare.

"No, I don't want that option.  I don't want that one either.  Nope, take it out.  Nope, not interested in that either."
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Offline Baruch

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2018, 01:08:22 AM »
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Yeah, next time I'm able to buy new or semi-new, I'm going to be a salesman's nightmare.

"No, I don't want that option.  I don't want that one either.  Nope, take it out.  Nope, not interested in that either."

Like with phone canvasing ... up-selling is where all the profit margin is, not on the base model.
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Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2018, 05:44:41 AM »
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Yeah, next time I'm able to buy new or semi-new, I'm going to be a salesman's nightmare.

"No, I don't want that option.  I don't want that one either.  Nope, take it out.  Nope, not interested in that either."
They have no problem with you ordering a car, they still get a commission. The salesman's nightmare is the person who walks out without buying a car at all.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2018, 06:49:37 AM »
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They have no problem with you ordering a car, they still get a commission. The salesman's nightmare is the person who walks out without buying a car at all.
The last time I bought a car, I did walk out of one place, even after we agreed on a price.  I knew what the car was worth and I made a legitimate offer.  The salesman wanted to start negotiating, but I held firm.  Then he wanted me to "take a chance," and wanted me to cut a deck of cards.  If I got the high card, he would take my offer.  If he got the high card, he would sell at the "lowest" price he could come down to.  I refused to cut the deck, and told him to put the cards away. Then he got the manager who came over and said he couldn't sell it that low, and also wanted to do the card thing.  There was also a lot of other stuff going on, rattling of papers, asking personal questions, being told I seemed like a nice guy, pens clicking, distractions, and sudden changes in negotiation tactics.   I had got there late, and it had been a long drive.  Now the sun was going down, and I was getting tired and wrung out.  Finally, he agreed to take my offer, but at this point I had become disgusted and even confused, but lucid enough to recognize the confusion.  This is not how it's supposed to feel when you buy a car, so I told them I was going leave.  They looked shocked (not an exaggeration), and pointed out that they were taking my offer and that I had "won."  I said, "No, I'm leaving now," and I drove home in the dark thinking about how much the experience felt like an LSD trip.

A couple of months later the same model in the right color, with the right options became available 200 miles in the other direction.  I drove there, test drove it, made an offer, and spent no more than 30 minutes in the office doing the paperwork, and I was home before the sun went down.  They delivered the car to my house a couple days later, since I had driven to the dealership by myself and wasn't doing a trade in.

Re: Backup Cameras are Now Required in all New Cars
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2018, 06:54:12 AM »
I walk in.

"I'll give you 75% of the sticker price."

"We can't do that."

"Bye."

"Wait! Would you..."

"I'll give you 75% of the sticker price." And so on. I got a car for what I was willing to pay.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

 

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