Author Topic: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?  (Read 6806 times)

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #75 on: October 04, 2018, 10:40:54 AM »
I know you are very bright.  That is evidence of a quality British education (what is that?  many here are Americans, stop using big words).

None of this is relevant.

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If you get deeper into higher level logic, into modal logic, into paraconsistent logic ... then no, the Law of Identity doesn't hold.

The opposite is the case. I mean, for starters, modal logic can't even make sense without the law of identity. Something is what it is. A=A. Modal logic talks of possible worlds and also of how some worlds are logically impossible... but logical possibility and logical impossibility can only hold as concepts if they can hold as concepts. if A=A.

Literally all of logic falls apart without the law of identity.

 The question about axioms isn't absolute but relative.  Under which conditions does the axiom hold, and under what conditions does it not hold.
[/quote]

For any axiom to exist at all an axiom has to be an axiom. No other laws can make any sense without the law of identity. Without the law of identity all there is is illogical equivocation and confusion. And even that would prove the law of identity because if it's true to say that there's illogicality then it's true to say that there's illogicality... literally even arguing against the law of identity confirms the law of identity. The law of identity is the starting axiom for the whole of logic.

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Cavebear is right in this way ... in Principia Mathematica, Russell and Whitehead took 350 pages of proof to show that 1 + 1 = 2.  I am not impressed.

Whether you are impressed or not is irrelevant. And whether or not 1+1=2 can be proven or not is irrelevant to the fact that the law of identity is the foundation of logic. You can't deny it without denying it and if denying it is denying it then it is true and so your very own denying it is undeniably illogical. Any argument against the law of identity is self-defeating because to argue against it is to presuppose it.

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It would seem they were pushing the rope, not yet aware (how could they) the relationship between logic an algebra.  Mathematics is more dialectical than deductive ... unless you are David Hilbert.

Algebra is like symbolic logic with numbers. The fact that you are acknowledging the relationship between mathematics and logic, works in my favor, not yours. Truths don't help you to argue against my point when those truths are either irrelevant to my point or support my point rather than yours.

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2018, 02:52:53 PM »
A renowned mathematician, Sir Michael Atiyah,  has recently claimed to have proved the Riemann hypothesis, a long-standing problem in mathematics. He will likely try to claim the prize offered by the Clay institute for a solution. But it has yet to be seen whether his solution really does constitute a proof:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2180504-riemann-hypothesis-likely-remains-unsolved-despite-claimed-proof/

It would be fantastic if Riemann were indeed proven, since much of modern mathematics hinges on the truth of it. There are many mathematical results which are known to be true if the Riemann Hypothesis is be proven to be true.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #77 on: October 04, 2018, 03:05:31 PM »
A renowned mathematician, Sir Michael Atiyah,  has recently claimed to have proved the Riemann hypothesis, a long-standing problem in mathematics. He will likely try to claim the prize offered by the Clay institute for a solution. But it has yet to be seen whether his solution really does constitute a proof:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2180504-riemann-hypothesis-likely-remains-unsolved-despite-claimed-proof/

It would be fantastic if Riemann were indeed proven, since much of modern mathematics hinges on the truth of it. There are many mathematical results which are known to be true if the Riemann Hypothesis is be proven to be true.

It just HAD to be about prime numbers, LOL!  That's OK, it will never make the slightest practical difference in my life. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #78 on: October 04, 2018, 03:13:41 PM »
Well, actually, it could. I've heard that if Riemann is proven, the entire internet might become a vast wasteland, or something.

Maths holy grail could bring disaster for internet
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #79 on: October 04, 2018, 03:19:14 PM »
Well, actually, it could. I've heard that if Riemann is proven, the entire internet might become a vast wasteland, or something.

Maths holy grail could bring disaster for internet

Like a trinary computer.  When I see it, I'll buy it.  But most obscure math solutions stay that way for old farts like me.  "Impractical in my lifetime".  I've been waiting for my flying car since 1968...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Hydra009

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #80 on: October 04, 2018, 03:35:19 PM »
Well, actually, it could. I've heard that if Riemann is proven, the entire internet might become a vast wasteland, or something.

Maths holy grail could bring disaster for internet
I feel like I don't know enough about math to read even an executive summary of Riemann hypothesis.

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #81 on: October 04, 2018, 03:41:21 PM »
Well, it's pretty simple, really: All of the non-trivial zeros of the zeta function lie on the line 1/2 in the complex plane

See, simple!
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2018, 03:48:56 PM »
Well, it's pretty simple, really: All of the non-trivial zeros of the zeta function lie on the line 1/2 in the complex plane

See, simple!

Uh huh...  So a duck, a badger, and an ostrich go into a bar...  The rest will make if you check out the joke thread...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Hydra009

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2018, 03:56:50 PM »
Well, it's pretty simple, really: All of the non-trivial zeros of the zeta function lie on the line 1/2 in the complex plane

See, simple!
*brains leak out his ears*
*collapses out of his chair*

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #84 on: October 04, 2018, 03:59:32 PM »
*brains leak out his ears*
*collapses out of his chair*

Oh well the Zeta function, of course.

No, I haven't a clue either.  I lost math at "e".
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2018, 07:28:49 PM »
Like a trinary computer.  When I see it, I'll buy it.  But most obscure math solutions stay that way for old farts like me.  "Impractical in my lifetime".  I've been waiting for my flying car since 1968...

Computer busses already use 3 level logic.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2018, 07:30:11 PM »
A renowned mathematician, Sir Michael Atiyah,  has recently claimed to have proved the Riemann hypothesis, a long-standing problem in mathematics. He will likely try to claim the prize offered by the Clay institute for a solution. But it has yet to be seen whether his solution really does constitute a proof:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2180504-riemann-hypothesis-likely-remains-unsolved-despite-claimed-proof/

It would be fantastic if Riemann were indeed proven, since much of modern mathematics hinges on the truth of it. There are many mathematical results which are known to be true if the Riemann Hypothesis is be proven to be true.

Not truth ... consistent relative to some set of axioms.  Euclidean geometry isn't true, but in its final Hilbert version it is both rigorous and consistent.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #87 on: October 04, 2018, 07:31:36 PM »
Well, it's pretty simple, really: All of the non-trivial zeros of the zeta function lie on the line 1/2 in the complex plane

See, simple!

The function makes a recursive infinitely deep fractal.  Such things are hard to prove yeah or neah.  You can always zoom into more detail.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Baruch

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #88 on: October 04, 2018, 07:32:53 PM »
Well, actually, it could. I've heard that if Riemann is proven, the entire internet might become a vast wasteland, or something.

Maths holy grail could bring disaster for internet

I you can break two-key (public/private) encryption, the Internet is toast.  This is why quantum computers are being developed.  Intelligence agencies are hoping for a free lunch.  I think a longer key can compete with a long enough q-bit chain.  This is the spook equivalent of Santa Claus.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 07:35:06 PM by Baruch »
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2018, 03:30:36 AM »
Computer busses already use 3 level logic.

3 level logic is not the same as trinary.   I know it sounds similar, though.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!