Author Topic: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?  (Read 6045 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2018, 06:51:18 PM »
Yet you can't make sense of that statement (Heraclitus's original was "you cannot step twice into the same stream" — except it was in Greek) unless you have some notion of what "the same river/stream" means. Just because some things don't retain their physical identical-ness across time doesn't mean there's no such thing as identity, nor that the law of identity is invalid. Indeed, the statement loses its profundity if the law of identity is not a thing.

Oh know, should have quoted the original Greek, which had no punctuation ... the horror!

But you didn't even bother to help me with the naming they ancient guy who hyperbolicised Heraclitean flux.  And I know that what you know of logic is undergraduate level.  Not bad for the kinds of problems given to them.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2018, 08:10:40 AM »
Both Baruch and Luckswallowsall engage in the same fallacy.  That unfactual philosophy (being mostly mid-experiments) has meaning in a rational world.  Their problem is that they can't use actual facts to support their arguments because their arguments are not fact based.  And any argument not fact-based isn't worth the paper it cannot be printed on in less than 5,000 pages.



Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2018, 12:41:00 PM »
Both Baruch and Luckswallowsall engage in the same fallacy.  That unfactual philosophy (being mostly mid-experiments) has meaning in a rational world.  Their problem is that they can't use actual facts to support their arguments because their arguments are not fact based.  And any argument not fact-based isn't worth the paper it cannot be printed on in less than 5,000 pages.

While I agree that philosophy can be mostly chasing your own tail ... not all of it is.  And yes, you need grounding in actual facts (from which deductions can then be made).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2018, 12:58:11 PM »
While I agree that philosophy can be mostly chasing your own tail ... not all of it is.  And yes, you need grounding in actual facts (from which deductions can then be made).

Name a fact-based philosopher...  I say Kant comes closest, mostly because he rejects other philosophers and is mostly reality-based.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2018, 01:04:38 PM »
Name a fact-based philosopher...  I say Kant comes closest, mostly because he rejects other philosophers and is mostly reality-based.

Sorry, David Hume was anti-BS ... more than any other.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2018, 01:10:15 PM »
I'd say Bertrand Russell comes pretty close to being the most fact-based philosopher.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2018, 01:12:57 PM »
I'd say Bertrand Russell comes pretty close to being the most fact-based philosopher.
  Well, I was thinking more classical philosophers, but OK.  Tell me what Russell thought.  I could look it up, but I value your interpretation.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2018, 07:28:22 PM »
I'd say Bertrand Russell comes pretty close to being the most fact-based philosopher.

Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM FRS was a British philosopher, logician, mathematician, historian, writer, social critic, political activist, and Nobel laureate.

Very unaccomplished person.  An even changed his mind sometimes.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2018, 08:24:29 PM »
  Well, I was thinking more classical philosophers, but OK.  Tell me what Russell thought.  I could look it up, but I value your interpretation.

He also had a very progressive school for the time. I don't know that I can actually summarize his work, since there was quite a lot of it, and I haven't read it all. I have read, and treasure, Why I Am Not a Christian.

One of his gems is: “What really moves people to believe in God is not any intellectual argument at all. Most people believe in God because they have been taught from early infancy to do it, and that is the main reason.”
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #69 on: October 04, 2018, 05:09:30 AM »
Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM FRS was a British philosopher, logician, mathematician, historian, writer, social critic, political activist, and Nobel laureate.

Very unaccomplished person.  An even changed his mind sometimes.

And you told me absolutely nothing useful about him... 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2018, 05:12:19 AM »
He also had a very progressive school for the time. I don't know that I can actually summarize his work, since there was quite a lot of it, and I haven't read it all. I have read, and treasure, Why I Am Not a Christian.

One of his gems is: “What really moves people to believe in God is not any intellectual argument at all. Most people believe in God because they have been taught from early infancy to do it, and that is the main reason.”

THAT I can understand.  Most people remain just as they were raised to be.  Some start to think for themselves.  SOME few actually manage it.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #71 on: October 04, 2018, 07:07:02 AM »
And you told me absolutely nothing useful about him...

Apparently none of those things ... philosophy, mathematics etc are useful to you.

And yes, you do find it useful to have echo-chamber confirmation of your own views.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2018, 07:14:38 AM »
Apparently none of those things ... philosophy, mathematics etc are useful to you.

And yes, you do find it useful to have echo-chamber confirmation of your own views.

The last thing I want is an echo chamber.

The last thing I want is an echo chamber.

LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2018, 07:19:35 AM »
The last thing I want is an echo chamber.

The last thing I want is an echo chamber.

LOL!

Echo (nymph) was in love with the boy Narcissus ... figures.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ ła’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Did you know that mathematics is just a useful fiction?
« Reply #74 on: October 04, 2018, 07:21:52 AM »
Echo (nymph) was in love with the boy Narcissus ... figures.

Yes, I know the basic myths and some odd ones too.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!