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Muhammad, prophet or pretender

Started by PopeyesPappy, August 18, 2018, 12:08:09 PM

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Baruch

Quote from: SGOS on August 22, 2018, 08:25:52 PM
How so?
Manifold truths tend to contradict themselves.  The literalist says, "This is so."  The illiteralist says, "It is not so.  Where is the truth in that?  Do you feel it in your bones?  And metaphorical apologetics allow even more variety of conflicting interpretations.
Oh, I thought they were inspired.  But really they were inspirited.  That makes a lot of difference, right?
Do I assume those who were more inspirited were the credible experts with the better credentials, and those who were less inspirited were the unreliable sources we were told about in high school critical reading exercises.

Some people can appreciate or produce poetry or philosophy.  Others cannot.  One can attribute this charism to G-d or to quantum mechanics.  Scientists are analytical .. not synthetic.  Artists are synthetic, but a good artist is expert at art, even if they aren't a scientist.  For you probably, an expert = scientist.  We are not Vulcans.  Reality isn't rational (for humans anyway} ... humans are irrational, we can't experience reality any other way.  To make a claim beyond experience, is to be Platonic or prophetic.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 22, 2018, 08:45:21 PM
See, this is that part that just feels silly to me. The truth I feel is that truth can't be felt.

You are abnormal.  An extreme example of personality variation.  Some people have no emotions at all.

Truth isn't arithmetic.  Truth is integrity with self and between people.  I assume you have that, but you can't label it that, because if one is all IQ and no EQ ... one can't.  If I am sincere and self aware then anything I say to you is truthful, but not necessarily factual.  To equate words that don't equate, is Newspeak.  And I believe you are being truthful ... but that word doesn't mean what you think it means.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 22, 2018, 10:02:24 PM
I do.  And it guides me daily.  But it is not a spirit--nor is it just 'known'.  I work on it daily.  And through practice it is reinforced or changed.

In my experience, I call that G-d.  But for you, it is philosophically impersonal, like the Force in Star Wars.  Aka a Buddhist.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

pr126

A universal god does not exist. It cannot. It is simply an [abstract] idea, without substance.

It is restricted to the planet earth and by geography/culture, it differs in ethics, laws, customs, often diametrically.

It is a creation by humans for humans.


Baruch

#49
Quote from: pr126 on August 23, 2018, 05:38:29 AM
A universal god does not exist. It cannot. It is simply an [abstract] idea, without substance.

It is restricted to the planet earth and by geography/culture, it differs in ethics, laws, customs, often diametrically.

It is a creation by humans for humans.

Exactly correct.  But not irrelevant.  Human things, including religion and politics, are completely relevant to humans.  I agree that the theologians and philosophers have failed in their search for eternal life or the philosopher's stone.

Earlier this year, I was exploring early Medieval thought in Andalusia.  It is full of this kind of universalist speculation.  It was apologetic too, to keep worldly Muslims and Jews from going materialist.

So no need to keep up the straw men, while claiming rationality or objectivity.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

pr126

The philosophers stone was taken by Hagrid from the Gringotts bank, gave it to Dumbledore who destroyed it.


SGOS

Quote from: Baruch on August 23, 2018, 05:20:22 AM
Some people can appreciate or produce poetry or philosophy.  Others cannot.  One can attribute this charism to G-d or to quantum mechanics.  Scientists are analytical .. not synthetic.  Artists are synthetic, but a good artist is expert at art, even if they aren't a scientist.  For you probably, an expert = scientist.  We are not Vulcans.  Reality isn't rational (for humans anyway} ... humans are irrational, we can't experience reality any other way.  To make a claim beyond experience, is to be Platonic or prophetic.
And how does this prove the existence of God?

Actually, I asked Pops the Builder for an explanation of truth, but he couldn't explain it either, because most of his explanation of truth is "manifold," probably because it comes out of his manifold.  But only after he first puts it in a blender.  This should make sense to you.  It does to me.  I get it, as I believe obscuring meaning is a theological defense mechanism.

SGOS

QuoteSee, this is that part that just feels silly to me. The truth I feel is that truth can't be felt.

Quote from: Baruch on August 23, 2018, 05:24:19 AM
You are abnormal.  An extreme example of personality variation.  Some people have no emotions at all.

Truth isn't arithmetic.  Truth is integrity with self and between people.  I assume you have that, but you can't label it that, because if one is all IQ and no EQ ... one can't.  If I am sincere and self aware then anything I say to you is truthful, but not necessarily factual.  To equate words that don't equate, is Newspeak.  And I believe you are being truthful ... but that word doesn't mean what you think it means.
"My personal acting technique is working with color. Imagining, then finding the emotional vibrational mood connected to the color. See, if you look through my scripts, you see that all my lines have a special color. So, I don't memorize language, I memorize colors. This way I can go through red, yellow, green, blue, and you have a full palette of emotions."

    - Kramer gives a lecture, in "The Trip"

Mike Cl

Quote from: popsthebuilder on August 22, 2018, 10:28:29 PM

That is good to hear friend.

The conscience is a guidance and it can change or be subjective unless altruism or selflessness is actively applied to moral equations. You can say it is a product of chemical/ changes caused by the brain and that it too causes these changes in instances. You don't haven't agree that it is of GOD; and I didn't exactly mean the conscience is GOD, but that it is imparted by GOD that we might attain to the guidance of GOD/ the Spirit/ Creator/ Origin of both life and the conscience....even if you believe in evolution and that we are but the sum of our parts.

peace

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk
I don't 'believe' in anything.  I think evolution exists and works because I've seen the evidence that proves it to me.  Evolution is not something one has to 'believe' in; one has to 'believe' in god because there is no proof of any kind that god exists or ever existed.  As for my conscience, it is simply that part of my brain that processes my perception of what is good/bad for me, what is right/wrong for me all based on how the world impacts me.  Spirit has nothing to do with it--it is totally me. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: SGOS on August 23, 2018, 06:40:56 AM
And how does this prove the existence of God?

Actually, I asked Pops the Builder for an explanation of truth, but he couldn't explain it either, because most of his explanation of truth is "manifold," probably because it comes out of his manifold.  But only after he first puts it in a blender.  This should make sense to you.  It does to me.  I get it, as I believe obscuring meaning is a theological defense mechanism.

Don't worry about proof.  I don't demand proof that you are human, instead of a Turing test, do I?

Proof  - applied so logic and mathematics ... highly technical things.  Do you demand proof before you eat your breakfast?

Can't speak for Pops.  Also originally logic was negative, not positive.  And it is used in that original nihilistic way, by atheists usually.  While I agree that positivistic proofs of G-d are ... flawed.  Asking logic to prove G-d is like asking a pencil to prove drawing.  There has to be an artist to pick the pencil and paper up and do the drawing.

And yes, logicians (the ordinary kind) are not comfortable with multivalence.  Like science fans who are stuck with Newton, most logic fans are stuck with Boole.  I have already posted on how more recent and advanced logics totally go beyond such 19th century notions.  Fuzzy logic for example.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 23, 2018, 08:59:02 AM
I don't 'believe' in anything.  I think evolution exists and works because I've seen the evidence that proves it to me.  Evolution is not something one has to 'believe' in; one has to 'believe' in god because there is no proof of any kind that god exists or ever existed.  As for my conscience, it is simply that part of my brain that processes my perception of what is good/bad for me, what is right/wrong for me all based on how the world impacts me.  Spirit has nothing to do with it--it is totally me.

Being in possession of absolute reality (ala Plato) you don't make hypotheses ;-)  Well I do feel that way about subjective physical facts (my hand for example typing this).  So I actually think you mean the same thing as I do, though perhaps extending to ideas.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: SGOS on August 23, 2018, 07:14:45 AM
"My personal acting technique is working with color. Imagining, then finding the emotional vibrational mood connected to the color. See, if you look through my scripts, you see that all my lines have a special color. So, I don't memorize language, I memorize colors. This way I can go through red, yellow, green, blue, and you have a full palette of emotions."

    - Kramer gives a lecture, in "The Trip"

You are not Unbeliever.  I don't see you as un-emotional as he is, not nihilistic.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

1+1=2 is an abstract fact.

My hand typing this is a physical fact.

Truth isn't about facts, anymore than calculus is about ardvarks.

Define truth?  This is about power certainly, because truth claims are highly important in politics.  Where truth goes to die.  This is why Papal authority (ex cathedra) is so important.  So basically I get to beat you up until you agree with me, what is truth.  Didn't Mao say truth comes from the barrel of a gun?  Per the OP, this is exactly how Muslims define truth.  If I conquer you, rob you, rape you, kill you ... then Allah is clearly on my side, and the Quran is true.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

SGOS

Quote from: Baruch on August 23, 2018, 08:59:43 AM
Do you demand proof before you eat your breakfast?
What would be the point? But when someone tells me there is a fairy godfather living in the sky, I want to see some proof.  But I would happily settle for logic.

Quote from: Baruch on August 23, 2018, 08:59:43 AM
While I agree that positivistic proofs of G-d are ... flawed. 
Because they can't prove god exists, doesn't mean they are flawed.  It just means you have no ground to make incredible claims.

Quote from: Baruch on August 23, 2018, 08:59:43 AM
Asking logic to prove G-d is like asking a pencil to prove drawing.  There has to be an artist to pick the pencil and paper up and do the drawing.
And using logic to prove a god also requires an artist; A bullshit artist.


Baruch

#59
Quote from: SGOS on August 23, 2018, 09:25:21 AM
What would be the point? But when someone tells me there is a fairy godfather living in the sky, I want to see some proof.  But I would happily settle for logic.
Because they can't prove god exists, doesn't mean they are flawed.  It just means you have no ground to make incredible claims.
And using logic to prove a god also requires an artist; A bullshit artist.

Prove you are not an AI, a chatbot.  I demand it now!

You should demand demonstration of claims of fairy godfathers, not proof.  Unless of course you are Pythagoras.  For me, the existence of anything and everything is a demonstration, that nihilism is false.  Not proof.

Atheists claim that eventually science will know everything.  Well perhaps eventually theologians will prove they weren't wasting their time.

All humans are BS artists ... particulary Tay, the Nazi teen girl AI.

Logic is fine, but it only proves logic.  As a fish demonstrates the existence of fishiness.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.