Author Topic: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!  (Read 3586 times)

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2018, 10:36:04 AM »
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I would assume that the guys on the moon would spend some time synching their clock with Earth's before the experiment begins. Even if they just stupidly set their clock to the time they observe through their telescope, they just note that their time is 1 second behind Earth time. Hell, they didn't even need to do that, as if they moved the clock slowly enough to the moon, there would be no appreciable time dialation (launching the clock Apollo style, it would count as "slowly enough").

How about building the clocks on the Earth, load it on a rocket, blast all 3 into space, stop halfway, send the clocks with the same speed to the Moon and Earth with smaller rockets that travel at snailpace to both positions.
Why all the fuss to try and show that speed will have an effect on a clock?
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2018, 10:53:10 AM »

Quote from: Mouse trap
If we do the same with this experiment, but this time from the point of view of the observer on the Moon, he will note the times exactly as how we saw the time frame on the rocket and moon. Except that the clock on the rocket will appear to take off from earth at 1 second before noon,
Quote from: HR
Wrong. The moon sees that the image of the Earth clock clearly reads 12:00:00 at the moment that the rocket passes that Earth clock (and the rocket's clock reads 12:00:00 at that moment, too). Of course, that light took one second to reach the moon, so they will get this image at 12:00:00 by their clock, but then, they know that their clock is out of synch with the Earth clock.

I say this again, because it's important: the moon knows (or should know, as it's easy to find out) it's clock is out of synch with the Earth's clock, and by how much (and thus can easily bring the two into synch with proper adjustments).

I think you missed out when I wrote, lets do this experiment again, but from the time-frame of the Moon.
I want us to be clear about my claim.
If the observer on the Moon looks at the Earth at 12H00, when the rocket also blasts off from the Earth at 12H00, the observer on the Moon will see the clock on the Earth and the clock on the Rocket are both one second before Noon.

The clock on the Moon will move forward for one second, and the rocket will arrive at the same instance.
The clock on the Earth will appear to be noon, but both the Rocket and Moon clock will show one second past Noon.

Therefore, the Earth clock seems to be late with 1 second to the one on the moon, and the clock on the Rocket seemed to have moved forward 2 seconds on its journey of one second.

Are we both in agreement?
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2018, 10:53:27 AM »
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Great stuff, so let me continue.

If I travel to this moon we moved to one light second from the Earth, at the speed of light.
It will take one second.
It will take one second from any observer but you. For you, it will be instantaneous. One moment, your on Earth, and the next, you're on the Moon.

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Now, I have yet to find a physicist who do not think that if this happen, we will travel and time will stand still.

BS! Time will not stand still at all!
Every physicist will say that YOUR time will stand still. You will not experience time as you travel at the speed of light. Everyone else, however, will not be affected.

Quote
The only thing that will happen, is that as we move away from the Earth, an observer on the Earth will notice that our clock on the rocket stands still because we are moving away with the light..
Even taking into account light delays, they will still see your clock stay still. Assuming you have time to transmit at all (which is not really an option since you experience no time at all at light speed), they will be able to correct for the time that it takes for light to get to Earth. And when they make that correction, they will see that time on your spaceship has not progressed at all.

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The same goes for the pilot, he will see the Earth clock stand still!
Assuming that he even has time to contemplate anything before smashing into Alpha Centari, yes. But then, the guy on the rocket felt the acceleration on his own ship, and can see the accelerometers on Earth not registering anything, so he knows that the Earth is not accelerated. He is.

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Now, lets consider.
If the rocket travels to the Moon at the speed of light, how long will the journey be?
One second.
By the Earth clock and the Moon clock, but not the rocket clock. The rocket clock is the only clock that is moving relative to anything else in the experiment, and as such is the only clock that "experiences" time dialation.

Quote
How the heck does anyone think that time dilated?
Again, we've seen it in action. Science has seen it in action. Too many muons that are generated in the earth's atmosphere from cosmic rays live to reach the surface. Short-lived particles generated in accelerators travel too far before they decay if their clocks were running at the same speed as ours.

Your inability to comprehend relativity doesn't mean it's wrong. It just means you don't comprehend relativity.

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Lets carry one with this experiment.
Physicists say, if we travel faster than light, we will go back in time!
IF it were possible to go faster than light, then we can leverage it to go back in time. If you were actually to read up on what relativity says about how to do this, if it were possible, you need at least two legs to make it happen. Here's a discussion about the problem of FTL and time travel from Physicsmatt:

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Quote
Ok, so lets travel at 2X the speed of C!
How long does the journey take?
HALF A SECOND!
WHERE DID THEY GET THE IDEA THAT WE WILL TRAVEL BACK INTO TIME?

Ok, so lets travel at 4X the speed of Light.
How long does the journey take?

A QUARTER OF A SECOND!

at 8X the speed of light, it will take an eighth of a second, and so on...

Guys, do you see the constant?

Time!!!

Time can not be changed, Einstein lied, and the Bible is true!
No, you simply don't understand what you're talking about. From one frame of reference, there is no time travel, and you and Einstein agree on that. It takes ANOTHER reference frame to generate one of these paradoxes. The reason you haven't generated time travel in your thought experiment is because you haven't set up the conditions for it to occur yet.
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Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2018, 12:53:34 PM »
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OK, so why do they say time will turn back if we travel faster than the speed of light?

It works this way.

Lets say we travel to A Centauri. 4.67 Light Years, and we travel at the speed of light.
There is this huge clock on Earth and we can see the time, date and years.
As we travel away from Earth, we will see the clock stands still, because we are travelling with the light as we departed from Earth.

However, If we travel at 2X C, the rocket will gain on the light that was travelling at C from the Earth, and it will seems as if this clock is turning in reverse,...
Using the formulas of Lorentz, it seems as if Time dilated!

No, it did not, all that happened is that the light we observed in our reference frame, was light we gained on as we traveled and gained on.
You need to do something else in order for time travel to show up. Let's take a more extreme example. Suppose our FTL drive travels along a world line's line "Now" — that is, if we have a bunch of clocks spread all over the universe that are both synchronized with our home clock and comoving with our own clock, the FTL drive will arrive at a new clock that reads exactly the same time as the clock it left. But if this FTL engine obeys relativity, then it will be able to arrive at that clock at that time ONLY if that clock was initially comoving with the ship carrying the drive.

We now set our space ship to travel to Alpha Centauri using the FTL drive. Because our clocks are synchronized according to us (a very important qualifier), the FTL drive will arrive at Alpha Centauri when it left. Everyone will agree that when the space ship leaves at Jan 1, 2018 12:00:00.0 AM according to the Earth clock, it will arive on Jan 1, 2018 12:00:00.0 AM according to the clock we arranged to put on Alpha Centauri.

So far so good, but what if the Vogons are cruising along at some appreciable v ≤ c (assuming they can) directly away from Earth. They will see that the FTL ship departs from Earth on Jan 1, 2018 12:00:00.0 AM according to Earth's clock, and arrive at Alpha Centauri on Jan 1, 2018 12:00:00.0 AM according to our Alpha Centauri clock, BUT the Vogons think that our clocks are out of synch, and any duration deduced from them over any notable distance will need adjustment. They have their own set of clocks scattered throughout the universe, synchronized and comoving with them, and use them to decide how much time has passed between the departure of the FTL rocket from Earth and its arrival at Alpha Centauri.

Suppose that the Vogons are traveling at ~1c, just to make things neat and tidy. Then if they pass Alpha Centauri on Jan 1, 2018 12:00:00.0 AM according to the ship's onboard clocks, then because of time dialation, they must have passed the Earth on Jan 1, 2018 12:00:00.0 AM according to the ship's onboard clocks, too. But they know that Alpha Centauri is 4.67 light years away, so it took them actually ~4.67 years to travel that distance, so they had seen the Earth's clock read sometime in May 2013 when they passed it. So Jan 2018 on their clock translates to May 2013 in Earth time, and thus Alpha Centauri time, and the Alpha Centauri clock placed by earth is BADLY out of synch with Earth time. (They are valid in thinking this, because length contraction —which occurs hand-in-hand with time dialation— places Alpha Centauri much much closer to the Earth, according to the Vogons.)

Nothing unusual has happened so far, because according to the Vogons, the FTL ship has left Earth after they did, and arrived at Alpha Centauri just as they do. But let's suppose that the Vogons immediately take on the FTL drive (thus making it comoving with their own clocks) and send it back. Because the FTL drive obeys relativity, it travels only to a place if a comoving and synchronized clock in the area reads the same time as the place it started. The clocks the FTL ship is now comoving with are the Vogon's clocks, so it travels to places where a Vogon clock reads Jan 2018, and the clock buzzing past Earth at the time reading Jan 2018 when Earth's own clock is reading May 2013.

And there is the time travel. The FTL ship left the Earth in Jan 2018 (Earth time), but returned to the earth May 2013 (Earth time).

Of course, this is only possible if FTL works as advertized. We don't see real FTL travel or communications in our universe, so causality is preserved.

-----

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How about building the clocks on the Earth, load it on a rocket, blast all 3 into space, stop halfway, send the clocks with the same speed to the Moon and Earth with smaller rockets that travel at snailpace to both positions.
Why all the fuss to try and show that speed will have an effect on a clock?

We don't need any fuss to show that. We can see it on atomic clocks on commercial airliners, but only to the tune of 50 nanoseconds or so over many flight hours. It is a subtle effect, which is why we don't see much of it in our ordinary lives, but it's there and is detectable clear as day with sensitive experiments.

Also, very sensitive technologies have to account for it, too. The GPS satellites (and similar geopositioning systems) have to take into account both special and general relativity when keeping time. Otherwise, time on earth and on the satellites would get badly out of synch and introduce horrible errors into positional accuracy, many tens of meters. When you have to take it into account with a real technology, it's a thing.

----

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I think you missed out when I wrote, lets do this experiment again, but from the time-frame of the Moon.
I want us to be clear about my claim.
If the observer on the Moon looks at the Earth at 12H00, when the rocket also blasts off from the Earth at 12H00, the observer on the Moon will see the clock on the Earth and the clock on the Rocket are both one second before Noon.
"Looking" requires light, which travels at the speed of light. Therefore, the very instant (according to the Earth and the Moon — that qualifier is very important) that the rocket leaves the Earth, the person looking from the moon sees the rocket on the pad at T-minus 1 second, and the Earth's clock reads 11:59:59, because the light of the Earth clock reading 12:00:00 and the rocket launching hasn't reached them yet. He doesn't see the launch at 12:00:00 Earth time until a second later Earth time. If light takes a substantial amount of time to travel from place to place, you kinda have to take that into account.

If Moon time is synched with Earth time, then he will see the launch at 12:00:01 Moon time, but observe the launch at 12:00:00 Moon time because he can do math and he knows the clocks are synchronized.

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The clock on the Moon will move forward for one second, and the rocket will arrive at the same instance.
Yes, it takes one second for the rocket to travel from Earth to the Moon by Earth's observations, and one second for the rocket to travel from the Earth to the Moon by the Moon's observations. They are both comoving with each other, and will measure time the same way. It's only with objects moving relative to each other that time dialation shows up. The Earth and Moon are not moving relative to each other in our gedanken, so no dialation there.

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The clock on the Earth will appear to be noon, but both the Rocket and Moon clock will show one second past Noon.
The rocket's clock is moving relative to both the earth and the moon. To say that the rocket's clock shows one second past noon is begging the question. It's what you have set out to prove; you can't take it as a given.

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Therefore, the Earth clock seems to be late with 1 second to the one on the moon,
Well, yeah, but they also know that the Earth clock is exactly one second ahead of what it seems from the Moon, because everyone in your model knows physics. Again, if light takes a substantial amount of time to travel from place to place, you kinda have to take that into account.

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and the clock on the Rocket seemed to have moved forward 2 seconds on its journey of one second.
No. That's the exact bone of contention. The guys on the moon can see perfectly well that the rocket launches when the clock on Earth (which is near the rocket) reads 12 noon. They see this image at 12:00:01 moon time, but they know that the light they see left Earth one second earlier. Once again, if light takes a substantial amount of time to travel from place to place, you kinda have to take that into account. Indeed, this image arrives at the moon and is seen at almost exactly the same time the rocket itself arrives (because they're traveling at almost the same speed, remember?). The moon sees that the rocket launched at exactly 12 noon, as measured by the local Earth clock (which is in synch with their own) and by the shipboard clock (which was at that moment in synch with their own), and arrives at one second past noon at the Moon.

The rocket will observe that they launch at 12 noon on Earth, and arrive at one second past noon on the Moon, according to Earth-Moon synchronized clocks. Their own shipboard clock remains at about 12 noon during the trip, however, because to the ship and everyone on it, the trip took less than a second and started at 12 noon. They deduce from this that the moon all of a sudden became much much closer than one light second away (because they were traveling near the speed of light for much much less than a second), yet the moon registered about one second for them to make the trip — ergo, the moon's clock slowed down, and since the moon clock stared and remains in synch with the Earth clock, the Earth clock must have slowed down, too.

Under no circumstances will anyone observe that the rocket's clock advances by two seconds. Earth doesn't observe it. The moon doesn't observe it. The rocket doesn't observe it.

Now, the moon suddenly becoming much closer is unphysical, but then, instantaneous acceleration to speed is equally unphysical. I've already given you that gimme, so you can't ding me for hand-in-hand gimme of the apparent teleportation of the moon.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2018, 12:56:14 PM »
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OK, so why do they say time will turn back if we travel faster than the speed of light?

It works this way.

Lets say we travel to A Centauri. 4.67 Light Years, and we travel at the speed of light.
There is this huge clock on Earth and we can see the time, date and years.
As we travel away from Earth, we will see the clock stands still, because we are travelling with the light as we departed from Earth.

However, If we travel at 2X C, the rocket will gain on the light that was travelling at C from the Earth, and it will seems as if this clock is turning in reverse,...
Using the formulas of Lorentz, it seems as if Time dilated!

No, it did not, all that happened is that the light we observed in our reference frame, was light we gained on as we traveled and gained on.

"There is this huge clock on Earth and we can see the time, date and years." ... far enough away, you are seeing the clock in the past, not in the present.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2018, 05:23:05 PM »



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« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 05:26:23 PM by Unbeliever »
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"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate."
Isaac Asimov

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2018, 06:51:04 PM »
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Why, Dont you understand how many apples I have?
I know how many brains you have--zip, nil, zero................
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2018, 07:17:10 PM »
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Time breaks down?  That is happening a lot these days, with Americans.  Maybe after we all have a good cry, we can sober up.
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline aitm

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2018, 08:25:59 PM »
Your "god" orders babies be smashed(dashed) against the rocks and little girls be raped...and you're trying to pretend that physics can prove your god exists? The real simple stunner is that people like you think that pos is worthy of defending.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Jason Harvestdancer

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2018, 10:13:34 AM »
How odd.  I am usually pretty good at interpreting babble into English, but this one actually has me stumped.
Watch my fanfilm
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Film the sequel
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Offline Baruch

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2018, 01:17:32 PM »
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How odd.  I am usually pretty good at interpreting babble into English, but this one actually has me stumped.

Your Babble fish died.  Contact the Vogons for a new one ;-)
𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎌𐎀𐎍𐎎𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀𐎟𐎍𐎜𐎜𐎟𐎁𐎀𐎍𐎉𐎀𐎀𐎚𐎀
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2018, 07:08:18 AM »
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It will take one second from any observer but you. For you, it will be instantaneous. One moment, your on Earth, and the next, you're on the Moon.
Every physicist will say that YOUR time will stand still. You will not experience time as you travel at the speed of light. Everyone else, however, will not be affected.

Just work it out again from this perspective.
What was the time you left Earth?
Noon.
What time did you arrive at the Moon?
1 sec past Noon.
Why?
Because you were travelling at C.
Which will be, 300 000 Km per second!
You traveled for ONE SECOND

How did time stand still?

It never did.
This is exactly what is wrong with your interpretation on the Lorenz transformation.
You are measuring the time of S' as seen from S, and do not realize that what you see is the LIGHT travelling back to S.
The watch was still ticking on S', and on the S frame.

Sorry, you are wrong.
Time never stopped on the rocket.
If it did, you would leave S (Earth) at noon and arrive on S (Moon)' at noon. This when S(Moon)' is at one second past Noon. They will never see you because you are one light second in the past. Look again...
But you did not arrive at Noon, because you were travelling at C, therefore the journey will take one second!
How do you get instantaneous travelling with you moving at the speed of C ?

What you are trying to tell me is that light travels from the Sun to Earth just more than 8 Minutes 20 seconds.
But if you travel on a space ship at the speed of light, you ill arrive here 8 minutes and 20 seconds before the light?

Do you see your error?

The above is an experiment where measurements of science on the speed of light proves Time dilation incorrect.

Another experiment for you to think about.

NASA sends Lazer beams to reflectors on the moon.
It takes about 2.5 seconds round trip from the Earth to the Moon and back.

If you were traveling at C when the laser fires away, you want to tell me you will be back 2.5 seconds before the Laser returns?

Naaaa, you misinterpret Lorenz' transformation formula.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 07:15:24 AM by Mousetrap »
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2018, 07:31:24 AM »
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Your inability to comprehend relativity doesn't mean it's wrong. It just means you don't comprehend relativity.
IF it were possible to go faster than light, then we can leverage it to go back in time. If you were actually to read up on what relativity says about how to do this, if it were possible, you need at least two legs to make it happen. Here's a discussion about the problem of FTL and time travel from Physicsmatt:

Allow me to show you how wrong you interpret the Speed of light with the wrong interpretation of Lorenz' transformation.

1. If the Moon is 300 000 Km from the Earth.
2. I travel on a spaceship to the Moon at C,
...it will take 1 second to arrive there.
3. If I travel at 2X C, It will take 0.5 second to get there.
4. At 4X C, it will take 0.25 second...
5. At 8X C, 0.125 second.

So, when will we travel faster than Time?
Or as you claim, we will go back in time!

Never, you can travel at infinite X speed of light, it will take time!

What now?
I thought you knew all about SR and GR?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 07:46:06 AM by Mousetrap »
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2018, 07:41:21 AM »
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----
"Looking" requires light, which travels at the speed of light. Therefore, the very instant (according to the Earth and the Moon — that qualifier is very important) that the rocket leaves the Earth, the person looking from the moon sees the rocket on the pad at T-minus 1 second, and the Earth's clock reads 11:59:59, because the light of the Earth clock reading 12:00:00 and the rocket launching hasn't reached them yet. He doesn't see the launch at 12:00:00 Earth time until a second later Earth time. If light takes a substantial amount of time to travel from place to place, you kinda have to take that into account.

If Moon time is synched with Earth time, then he will see the launch at 12:00:01 Moon time, but observe the launch at 12:00:00 Moon time because he can do math and he knows the clocks are synchronized.
Yes, it takes one second for the rocket to travel from Earth to the Moon by Earth's observations, and one second for the rocket to travel from the Earth to the Moon by the Moon's observations. They are both comoving with each other, and will measure time the same way. It's only with objects moving relative to each other that time dialation shows up. The Earth and Moon are not moving relative to each other in our gedanken, so no dialation there.
The rocket's clock is moving relative to both the earth and the moon. To say that the rocket's clock shows one second past noon is begging the question. It's what you have set out to prove; you can't take it as a given.


You are running in circles.
In one instance you say that if you travel at C, then you arrive at the Moon instantaneous!
Then you say, it will take one second.
Then you say, the clock on the space ship will stand still, then you say, the clocks on the Earth and Moon will have no time dilation, becaust it needs to move relative to each other, which is correct, but you forget that the rocket is the moving time frame.

So, what is it, will it take you one second at C to travel to the Moon, or instantaneous.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2018, 08:34:31 AM »


The faster We travel, the quicker we arrive.
Even when traveling at 9X the speed of light!

So, where do we go back in time when traveling faster than light?

We dont!

Time can not be changed, The Bible is correct again.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

 

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