Author Topic: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!  (Read 3714 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2018, 01:28:39 PM »
Personally, I accept actual experimental results.  The rocket-twin idea has never been tested, it simply falls as a logical consequence of what happens with sub-atomic particles.  Again, in that actual experiment, statistics intervenes.  So if you had a statistical sample of twin brothers on Earth, and their counterparts in the rocket ship, then on average, their internal clocks would be out of synch (Earth vs Rocket).  And this only applies to constant motion, not acceleration/deceleration (which is required in a practical comparison).  The actual people in the rocket/Earth would not notice anything out of the ordinary.  It is only the comparison that is out of the ordinary.
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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Offline aitm

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2018, 06:38:47 PM »
Right.....kid tries real hard to present ole god as a genius....the same god what claims a proper man can be determined by the way he drinks water from a river...or that a womans period is reason to put her in a tent outside of town for a week and she is filthy.....yep.....old god sure is a brilliant mind.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2018, 06:57:10 PM »
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Right.....kid tries real hard to present ole god as a genius....the same god what claims a proper man can be determined by the way he drinks water from a river...or that a womans period is reason to put her in a tent outside of town for a week and she is filthy.....yep.....old god sure is a brilliant mind.

If you had to deal with an ancient woman on her period, you would temporarily exile her too.
πŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽŒπŽ€πŽπŽŽπŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€πŽŸπŽπŽœπŽœπŽŸπŽπŽ€πŽπŽ‰πŽ€πŽ€πŽšπŽ€
luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2018, 02:27:20 AM »
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Right.....kid tries real hard to present ole god as a genius....the same god what claims a proper man can be determined by the way he drinks water from a river...or that a womans period is reason to put her in a tent outside of town for a week and she is filthy.....yep.....old god sure is a brilliant mind.
Duhhhh!
Time dilation!!!
Are you OK pal?
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2018, 07:31:58 AM »
I wonder where is Hakurei Reimu.
Perhaps he can tell us what the Lorentz transformation explains.

You see, if I have heaps of apples of 20 per heap, and I have 5 heaps, I do not have to count every apple to get to 100 apples.
All I have to do is to multiply 20 by 5.
Therefore, the mathematics of multiplication helps me to work out an answer by multiplying how many groups of certain units I have.

If I have 5 apples, and eat 1, how many do I have?
In this sense subtraction allows me to see what results I have after removing a certain amount from a heap of units.

So, Hakurei Reimu can perhaps teach me, from his scientific physicist education, what does the Lorentz transformation do?

When will I use the Lorentz transformation.

 
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Offline Hydra009

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2018, 12:26:42 PM »
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I wonder where is Hakurei Reimu.
Probably putting his time to better use.  Shopping for groceries, using the john, watching paint dry.  That sort of thing.

Offline Baruch

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2018, 01:09:23 PM »
Lorentz transformation ... from the point of view of Earth, the Rocket clock is going slow.  From the point of view of the Rocket, the Earth clock is going slow.  Doesn't make much sense does it?  If you accept some Platonic objectivity (absolute time and space).  The original problem for Einstein, was synchronization ... because in relative motion, this is impossible, the Lorentz transform follows, if you are using light beams to keep track of things.

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luu shalmaata luu balt’aata
May you be well, may you be healthy

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2018, 01:49:30 PM »
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If I have 5 apples, and eat 1, how many do I have?

You still have 5 apples - 4 outside and one inside.
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"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate."
Isaac Asimov

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2018, 02:11:34 PM »
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I wonder where is Hakurei Reimu.
Perhaps he can tell us what the Lorentz transformation explains.

You see, if I have heaps of apples of 20 per heap, and I have 5 heaps, I do not have to count every apple to get to 100 apples.
All I have to do is to multiply 20 by 5.
Therefore, the mathematics of multiplication helps me to work out an answer by multiplying how many groups of certain units I have.

If I have 5 apples, and eat 1, how many do I have?
In this sense subtraction allows me to see what results I have after removing a certain amount from a heap of units.

So, Hakurei Reimu can perhaps teach me, from his scientific physicist education, what does the Lorentz transformation do?

When will I use the Lorentz transformation.

 

What level of maths education do you have?
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tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Offline aitm

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2018, 08:39:58 PM »
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Duhhhh!
Time dilation!!!
Are you OK pal?

Yeah,,,stick to your thoughts and ignore the obvious. Typical xian, ignore the stupidity of the babble and invent its "genius". Right....yer a real brainiac
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2018, 02:09:27 AM »
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What level of maths education do you have?
Why, Dont you understand how many apples I have?
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2018, 02:23:42 AM »
I find it frustrating that an atheist challenges me to a mathematical think tank where he totally ignore anything observed science discovered on the origins of the Earth, and how hard he must fight to prove that the Earth was not wet when it formed.
He demands that I explain by means of Mathematics on the Nebular theory, and how I should steer clear from any reference that the original Earth had any water content, whilst the latest discoveries proves the contrary.

I thought for a while, and decided that going through the Special relativity, and General relativity with any person who are a master on Mathematics, might just be the answer on the accusations made by an Atheist against a Bible Believing Christian.

In particular, the Lorentz transformation.
Some basic mathematics that works out Time dilation.

I know there are many lectures on You tube, as well as Google showing exactly how to do the calculations, therefore, I can accept that we do not have to spent time in learning the maths.

However, I want to see if my opposing Atheist Mathematician could tell me what the Lorentz transformation does, and when we can use this mathematical formula.

Yet, it seems as if the learned Mathe-magician dont know.

Anyone up for grabs?



« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 02:26:46 AM by Mousetrap »
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2018, 10:18:30 AM »
Great stuff, so let me continue.

If I travel to this moon we moved to one light second from the Earth, at the speed of light.
It will take one second.

Now, I have yet to find a physicist who do not think that if this happen, we will travel and time will stand still.

BS! Time will not stand still at all!
The only thing that will happen, is that as we move away from the Earth, an observer on the Earth will notice that our clock on the rocket stands still because we are moving away with the light..
The same goes for the pilot, he will see the Earth clock stand still!

Now, lets consider.
If the rocket travels to the Moon at the speed of light, how long will the journey be?
One second.
How the heck does anyone think that time dilated?

Lets carry one with this experiment.
Physicists say, if we travel faster than light, we will go back in time!

Ok, so lets travel at 2X the speed of C!
How long does the journey take?
HALF A SECOND!
WHERE DID THEY GET THE IDEA THAT WE WILL TRAVEL BACK INTO TIME?

Ok, so lets travel at 4X the speed of Light.
How long does the journey take?

A QUARTER OF A SECOND!

at 8X the speed of light, it will take an eighth of a second, and so on...

Guys, do you see the constant?

Time!!!

Time can not be changed, Einstein lied, and the Bible is true!

« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:23:06 AM by Mousetrap »
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2018, 10:28:01 AM »
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Lets start here.

(Gedanken experiment)

<snip>

(to satisfy those that say you can not travel faster than light.)
The point of gedanken experiments is that we can ignore some unphysicalities to get at the meat of a physical principle. You're even allowed to fudge the exact numbers of real objects for the purposes of the experiment.

Quote
All these clocks were synchronized when they were built on Earth.

The questions to answer is:
1. When the Rocket left the Earth at 12H00, what did the clock on the Moon say time was seen from Earth?
The guys on the moon know that they are 1 light second away from Earth, because they can send a message, "Hey, what time is it?" at 11:59:59 and get a reply at 12:00:01 of "It's 12:00:00." If that is any other time, then the guys on the moon know that their clocks are out of synch. The guys on the moon know (because they know that they are 1 light second away from Earth) that their signal would arrive on Earth at 12:00:00 by their own clock (because they can do math), so they must get the reply at 12:00:01 by their own clock (again, because they can do math), so if they get a reply of any other time, they know their clock is out of synch. Given some math, this works to any arbitrary distance.

I would assume that the guys on the moon would spend some time synching their clock with Earth's before the experiment begins. Even if they just stupidly set their clock to the time they observe through their telescope, they just note that their time is 1 second behind Earth time. Hell, they didn't even need to do that, as if they moved the clock slowly enough to the moon, there would be no appreciable time dialation (launching the clock Apollo style, it would count as "slowly enough").

The same situation would be readily observable from the Earth. They would see the moon clock reading a time one second behind their own, but would know that the light they're seeing took one second to get to Earth, and therefore the clock on the moon is reading one second ahead of what they see. They thus deduce that the clock on the moon is synchronized with their own.

Quote
2. When the Rocket reached 150 000 Km from the earth, what did the clock on the Moon say time was seen from Earth?
When the rocket left, Earth's clock read 12:00:00, and the moon's clock is seen from Earth to read 11:59:59, so halfway there, the Earth sees 11:59:59.5 on the Moon clock, but know that they see the clock as one second behind theirs, so they know the moon clock actually reads 12:00:00.5, like Earth's.

Quote
3. and what did the clock on the rocket say time was seen from Earth?
Approximately 12:00:00, because the clocks started out in synch, and not much proper time has progressed on the near-c rocket.

Quote
4. and what did the clock on the Earth say it was as seen from Earth.?
12:00:00.5, same as they know the Moon clock is actually reading at that time.

The Moon and the Earth are comoving, albeit separated by a non-trivial distance in space. Any clocks that are synchronous and comoving will remain synchronous.

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True Baruch,
Now, I see it as, when the special rocket departs from the Earth at 1C, at exactly 12H00,
When the rocket left the Earth.
1.the clock on the Moon showed 11H59s59 (because it took the light to travel one second to arrive on Earth, from the clock on the moon)
The Clock on the Earth showed 12H00
and the clock on the Rocket was also at 12H00.
You assume the clocks are out of synch. There is no reason to assume that, and even if they were, there are plenty of ways to find out and correct this synch issue even at distance.

Quote
When the rocket arrived at the moon
2. The clock on the Earth showed 12H00s01
The clock on the Moon showed 12H00s00 Because the light took 1 sec to travel to the Earth and 1 second passed since the rocket departed and arrived on the Moon)
and the rocket's clock also showed 12H00s00. (because the rocket traveled with its light that showed the clock was at 12H00 when it departed.)
Not necessarily. Again, you can keep those clocks in sync, even across disance. Even if they aren't, the guys on the moon know they are 1 second behind the Earth clock.

Just wanted to note that.

Quote
When the rocket reached halfway to the Moon,
the Earth's clock said 12H00s0.5
the Moon's clock said 11H59s0.5
and the Rocket's clock said 12H00s00
Nothing unusual here.

Quote
The above is an example of how we will note what the different time increments are when we look at different time frames.
On earth it will seem as if the clock on the rocket stood still, until it stopped on the Moon.
The clock on the moon will be one second later than ours, and upon the arrival of the rocket on the moon, the clock of the Rocket and Moon will appear to be one second later than Earth's.
Again, the Earth knows that the image of the clock on the moon is one second old, and thus they have to assume the clock on the Moon is one second ahead of what they see it. The experiment, as you have set it up (with its out-of-synch clocks), has it that the rocket arrives at the moon when both clocks read 12:00:00. When the Earth looks through its telescope at 12:00:02, it will correctly see that the rocket clock and the moon clock both read 12:00:00, and they know that this image is one second behind.

Nothing unusual here. They know that the Moon clock is one second behind their own, so the Moon clock image they see should read 12:00:01 if they were properly synchronized, and that the light from that clock took a further 1 second to get back to them, so they are properly seeing it at 12:00:02 Earth time.

Quote
If we do the same with this experiment, but this time from the point of view of the observer on the Moon, he will note the times exactly as how we saw the time frame on the rocket and moon. Except that the clock on the rocket will appear to take off from earth at 1 second before noon,
Wrong. The moon sees that the image of the Earth clock clearly reads 12:00:00 at the moment that the rocket passes that Earth clock (and the rocket's clock reads 12:00:00 at that moment, too). Of course, that light took one second to reach the moon, so they will get this image at 12:00:00 by their clock, but then, they know that their clock is out of synch with the Earth clock.

I say this again, because it's important: the moon knows (or should know, as it's easy to find out) it's clock is out of synch with the Earth's clock, and by how much (and thus can easily bring the two into synch with proper adjustments).

Quote
but the clock on the rocket will appear to run twice as fast, and will gain 2 seconds until it arrives at 12H00s1 on the moon traveling only one second.
Wrong. The clock on the rocket remains stubbornly at 12:00:00 through the entire trip, including the very moment it passes the moon at 12:00:00 Moon time (12:00:01 Earth time). The Moon correctly deduces that practically no time has passed on the rocket since it left Earth.

The gold standard for measurement of proper time (time as experienced by an object) is a nearby, comoving clock. The clock on the rocket is a nearby, comoving clock (it's onboard, so it's going to be nearby and comoving). Ergo, it correctly measures the time abord the ship.

Nothing unusual has happened.

Quote
The pilot in the rocket will obviously see something totally different. If he leaves the Earth, he will see the Earth clock showing 12H00s00 untill he gets to the Moon. the Moon clock will show 11H59s01 and will seem to run twice as fast, and upon arrival will show 12H00s01, and would have gained 2 Seconds in one second travelling time.
Wrong. At the moment the rocket arrives on the moon, the moon's clock is showing 12:00:00, and the moon can inform the rocket crew that their time is one second behind the Earth's clock. At the moment they arrive, the rocket crew sees the Earth clock as reading 12:00:00, but they know that the Earth is one light second away, so the image is one second old. The Earth clock should read 12:00:01 at the time of their arrival, which they confirm a second later.

Furthermore, they realize that they have not experienced any appreciable time between when they left Earth and when they arrived on the Moon, as evidenced by their clock not registering any time between Earth departure (where the ship clock read 12:00:00) and Moon arrival (where the ship clock still read 12:00:00).

Quote
3 different time frames, 3 different observations, but still, time did not dilate.
Wrong. The ship's clock clearly did not register the passage of a second that the other two clocks registered.

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I wonder where is Hakurei Reimu.
Says the guy who disappears every weekend.

Don't criticize my schedule, and I won't criticize yours.

Quote
Perhaps he can tell us what the Lorentz transformation explains.
The explanation is simple: you bolloxed up the calculation of how much time actually passed between frames. The Earth and Moon clocks were comoving, and as such, they registered the same length of time. The only clock that was not registering the same length of time (and indeed, a shorter length of time) was the rocket clock, and it was the only clock that was moving.

Quote
You see, if I have heaps of apples of 20 per heap, and I have 5 heaps, I do not have to count every apple to get to 100 apples.
All I have to do is to multiply 20 by 5.
Therefore, the mathematics of multiplication helps me to work out an answer by multiplying how many groups of certain units I have.

If I have 5 apples, and eat 1, how many do I have?
In this sense subtraction allows me to see what results I have after removing a certain amount from a heap of units.

So, Hakurei Reimu can perhaps teach me, from his scientific physicist education, what does the Lorentz transformation do?
The Lorentz transformation doesn't apply here, unless you are interested in when and where each apple is eaten according to an observer moving relative to you.
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Re: Time dilation, length contraction, Relativity and the Bible!
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2018, 10:31:56 AM »
OK, so why do they say time will turn back if we travel faster than the speed of light?

It works this way.

Lets say we travel to A Centauri. 4.67 Light Years, and we travel at the speed of light.
There is this huge clock on Earth and we can see the time, date and years.
As we travel away from Earth, we will see the clock stands still, because we are travelling with the light as we departed from Earth.

However, If we travel at 2X C, the rocket will gain on the light that was travelling at C from the Earth, and it will seems as if this clock is turning in reverse,...
Using the formulas of Lorentz, it seems as if Time dilated!

No, it did not, all that happened is that the light we observed in our reference frame, was light we gained on as we traveled and gained on.
Evolution, the religion whereby one believes your children more human, and your parents more ape, than you!

The Human Mind, if it has nothing to do with Evolution...What an incredible entity...
If it does, what a waste!

Atheism, what a wonderful religion, where one believe to believe is erroneous.

 

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